Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

[SV650Squid]

On 9/19/2019 at 1:39 PM, TrackCage said:

This would create yet another gear race. 

So?

 

This game IS a race.

[ddc]

I would love to see Production participation return to the level that existed prior to the introduction of CO but I wonder if that is possible.

 

The damage may already be done. Even if there was some rule change that stimulated Production participation I wonder how many CO shooters would go back to Production.

 

Due to the recent Production rules changes there seems to be a lot of resistance to further modifications.

 

What about offering MDs the option of running a provisional Prod15 division for a year or two and see what the results are?

[cheby]

9 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

What about offering MDs the option of running a provisional Prod15 division for a year or two and see what the results are?

I really doubt that it's about 15rds. The optics and the rules changes making production Limited 10 minor are what that are killing it.

[HoMiE]

13 minutes ago, ddc said:

Due to the recent Production rules changes there seems to be a lot of resistance to further modifications.

What’s left to do to the gun besides adding optics and a comp?

[ddc]

8 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

What’s left to do to the gun besides adding optics and a comp?

 

I don't think anything needs to be done to the rules regarding gun modifications.

 

I was speaking only with respect to the 10 round mag limitation.

 

 

 

 

[ddc]

16 minutes ago, cheby said:

I really doubt that it's about 15rds. The optics and the rules changes making production Limited 10 minor are what that are killing it.

 

I agree 100% about the optics being a factor.

 

It hasn't occurred to me that the changes making production "L10 minor" were what was pushing people away from Production. I'll have to think about that one.

[broadside72]

 
I agree 100% about the optics being a factor.
 
It hasn't occurred to me that the changes making production "L10 minor" were what was pushing people away from Production. I'll have to think about that one.

There are still weight limits, no magwells, no slide rackers, no slide cuts, no SAO.

[HoMiE]

27 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

I don't think anything needs to be done to the rules regarding gun modifications.

 

I was speaking only with respect to the 10 round mag limitation.

 

 

 

 

You can pretty much do whatever you want to gun so the 10 round restriction is the only difference between limited minor without basepad or 140mm mags. Is 5 rounds going to be a game changer to division?

[ddc]

26 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

... Is 5 rounds going to be a game changer to division?

 

I doubt it. I think the horse has left the barn.

[PatJones]

Production numbers have dropped off in Eastern Colorado as well. It generally seems to be the lower classified shooters that have moved to other divisions.

I think production numbers were bolstered by it being the only "9mm-only" division. We now have 3 divisions that are scored minor only, so people can choose. Regardless of capacity, PCC and carry optics guns are easier to shoot and they will move you up in the overall results.

[Racinready300ex]

The more divisions we add the less competitors each division will have.

[TrackCage]

On 9/24/2019 at 10:43 AM, SV650Squid said:

So?

 

This game IS a race.

I don't know about you, but I don't really want to be buying a new gun every year because the capacity changes and that makes it the new hotness. Sure you can shoot your old trash, but you'd be at a disadvantage.

4 hours ago, HoMiE said:

What’s left to do to the gun besides adding optics and a comp?

It is the stupidity of the Production rules that made me leave, temporarily. I currently split time between Prod (my 1st love) and CO (my new side chick). Only because of local Prod heat do I even still care.

[HoMiE]

18 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

It is the stupidity of the Production rules that made me leave, temporarily. I currently split time between Prod (my 1st love) and CO (my new side chick). Only because of local Prod heat do I even still care.

The old adage “it’s the Indian, not the arrow” holds no matter what division you shoot in. You might jump up a few places running a dot locally but not going to make a difference if you go to bigger matches. 

[broadside72]

It is the stupidity of the Production rules that made me leave, temporarily. I currently split time between Prod (my 1st love) and CO (my new side chick). Only because of local Prod heat do I even still care.

What is stupid about them?

[TrackCage]

13 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

The old adage “it’s the Indian, not the arrow” holds no matter what division you shoot in. You might jump up a few places running a dot locally but not going to make a difference if you go to bigger matches. 

To be clear, I didn't switch because I wanted to move up in the results. I switched because CO has a lot of appeal, if you want to get into the red dot game and are too poor (cheap) to shoot open.

7 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

What is stupid about them?

Hammers, Triggers, Gas Pedals, Weight of some newer Prod guns, new interpretations via email from Troy that aren't in the rulebook... should I go on?

[HoMiE]

44 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

To be clear, I didn't switch because I wanted to move up in the results. I switched because CO has a lot of appeal, if you want to get into the red dot game and are too poor (cheap) to shoot open.

I have shot in every division except L10 and Revo, I don’t care what division people shoot or why they do it. I just don’t get the mentality, hey would should make the round capacity higher with these production division pistols when the same thing can already be accomplished shooting Limited. Nobody says you have to put base pads and run 140mags, that’s just the max. You want to shoot 15 round production to practice for IPSC, cool, sign up Limited, shoot minor and load your mags up to 15. Why does everybody else have to change?

[Matt1]

 
So lets see Shadow 2's weight 47 oz but by our rules you could add what 4 so now where at 51. (more than my limited gun), but you get to shoot minor. You have to suffer with a DA shot for the first pull then bare with a 3 lbs SA trigger after that. Add a race holster and 15 round mags. Meanwhile standard gets 19 rounds of 40 major in a 2011 mag with a 2 lbs trigger in a gun the same weight.  Dramatic overstatement? Not really.
 
I like how you can now change basically anything just keep the slide and frame the same and that is "minor mod's for comp"

You don’t have to live with a 3lb SA in a Shadow 2. Mines right on 2lb and I have to play by IPSC rules.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matt1]

 
 
I dunno. My Shadow 2 has little in common with "actual duty/carry guns commonly used by military and police all over the world". 

I don’t know what the origin for PD is jn USPSA but in IPSC it wasn’t meant to be for Cheap and/or duty guns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HoMiE]

8 minutes ago, Matt1 said:

 

I don’t know what the origin for PD is jn USPSA but in IPSC it wasn’t meant to be for Cheap and/or duty guns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Where do you think IPSC got the idea from? It started in USPSA first as a Practical/Tactical division that tried to get the gun manufacturers involved with sponsorship , they changed the name to production to not have the custom built guns that were in open and limited at the time. Sold it to the masses as come and shoot in this division we’re your duty/polymer frame gun isn’t at a disadvantage, only basic internal modifications can be made, it should look stock from the outside. Then after years of being asked, can I do this to my gun? Can I add this to my gun? NROI has thrown their hands up and taken the stance there is nothing stock about stock car racing and applied it to shooting. 

[broadside72]

Hammers, Triggers, Gas Pedals, Weight of some newer Prod guns, new interpretations via email from Troy that aren't in the rulebook... should I go on?

*thumb rest [generic]* I am not a fan of, but OFM like parts in mass produced guns is fine with me, even if the gun was produced just for this game and division.

It's still no mag wells, no rackers, no optics, no frame weights, no comp or optic, limited capacity, etc that makes it fun and less of a money pit.

[Tanders]

37 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

I have shot in every division except L10 and Revo, I don’t care what division people shoot or why they do it. I just don’t get the mentality, hey would should make the round capacity higher with these production division pistols when the same thing can already be accomplished shooting Limited. Nobody says you have to put base pads and run 140mags, that’s just the max. You want to shoot 15 round production to practice for IPSC, cool, sign up Limited, shoot minor and load your mags up to 15. Why does everybody else have to change?

 I personally don't care about the division capacity and I definitely wouldn't be in favor of increasing the capacity limit if it caused more people to leave.  However, I do know a lot of people who dislike reloading 3+ times during a long course and cite this as the main reason that they don't shoot Production anymore.  Why not run a provisional 15 round division and see if it's popular?  It won't drastically change how the dynamic of the division and it doesn't contradict the vision of Production as a place where you can shoot "stock" guns.  To reiterate, my main concern is increasing participation in some sort of accessible minor-only iron sight division; if Production-15 can accomplish that (which I think it will), then I am all for it.

 

As for shooting a Production gun in Limited... minor scoring isn't competitive when everyone else is shooting major.  Pretty sure that one has already been beat to death.

[RJH]

How to fix production: 

1 only guns currently on the production list,  others could be added though 

 

2 springs and sights are the only allowed mods, otherwise must be out of the box

 

3 fill factory grip length mags to factory capacity 

 

4. 9 minor 45 major

 

5 revolvers allowed with any mods they want and any caliber for major, and no more revolver division

 

Production perfection 

[broadside72]

How to fix production: 
1 only guns currently on the production list,  others could be added though 
 
2 springs and sights are the only allowed mods, otherwise must be out of the box
 
3 fill factory grip length mags to factory capacity 
 
4. 9 minor 45 major
 
5 revolvers allowed with any mods they want and any caliber for major, and no more revolver division
 
Production perfection 

How do you enforce #2?

So those that want to abide by local laws get screwed by those that don't care for #3? If a range applies 3.3.1 or whatever it is and forces 10 rounds in all divisions it won't get a lot of repeat shooters.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

 

How do you enforce #2?

So those that want to abide by local laws get screwed by those that don't care for #3? If a range applies 3.3.1 or whatever it is and forces 10 rounds in all divisions it won't get a lot of repeat shooters.
 

 

Pretty sure #2 was done that way in IPSC for quite a while,  if they could do it i am sure we can too.

 

There are already rules addressing #3 on the rulebook for hi cap divisions, they would be applicable here as well

[HoMiE]

36 minutes ago, Tanders said:

 I personally don't care about the division capacity and I definitely wouldn't be in favor of increasing the capacity limit if it caused more people to leave.  However, I do know a lot of people who dislike reloading 3+ times during a long course and cite this as the main reason that they don't shoot Production anymore.  Why not run a provisional 15 round division and see if it's popular?  It won't drastically change how the dynamic of the division and it doesn't contradict the vision of Production as a place where you can shoot "stock" guns.  To reiterate, my main concern is increasing participation in some sort of accessible minor-only iron sight division; if Production-15 can accomplish that (which I think it will), then I am all for it.

 

As for shooting a Production gun in Limited... minor scoring isn't competitive when everyone else is shooting major.  Pretty sure that one has already been beat to death.

Having to do reloads is not what keeps new people from coming out and shooting matches. It’s the perception that you have to have some high dollar tricked out gun to compete or be competitive. The 10 round limit made it equitable across all states and didn’t exclude guns that have 12, 13 or 15 round mag capacities.

If you shoot production 15 as Limited minor, then just look at the results for those people if that’s what you want to compare yourself too. I’ve seen plenty of shooters shoot Limited minor and beat others shooting major.