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Tanders

Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

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1 hour ago, NickBlasta said:

For what it's worth, OP lives where production is dead. In other parts of the country where production is larger people might not care as much, but...

 

The number one benefit of 15 in my mind is I get, all the time, people fresh from the gunshop with a 9mm and 3 magazines. I put them in limited so they can complete stages, but it would be "nice" if they had the choice to be in production if they wanted, people like choices.

 

Two it seems like relaxing gear restrictions just makes QOL better for the shooters already in the division and less likely to push them to racier divisions. Downside is people cry loudly about the purity of the rules. Gear changes can destroy a division (like revolver and 8 shot) but it doesn't seem like anyone seriously uses a production gun that holds less than 15 rounds.

 

Three it doesn't seem like it bothers the IPSC shooters much to go back and forth so the gameplay change is probably minimal.

 

🤷‍♂️

It would be kind of cool to not stick every single new shooter who shows up with a Glock 17 in Limited minor.  At least the winning stage HFs in Production would be less intimidating.

 

Nick, you're classified in Production, right?  What would it take for me to talk you into pulling out a Glock for a club match or two?

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Is already almost limited minor,,, NROI has made production an F ing joke, might as well get rid of the stupid 10 round nonsense and just go  with a box.
IMO If I ran USPSA I would have
1 Limited minor..  No optic no comp fit box, with mag all scored minor.
2 limited major,, 40 cal min, 140 mags, no comp no optics
3 Limited 10/8  10 round minor, 8 round major, no comps, no optics,
4 Open minor,, no comps, slide mounted optic, 140 mags.
5 Open major, run what u brung, 170mm mags

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1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

Is already almost limited minor,,, NROI has made production an F ing joke, might as well get rid of the stupid 10 round nonsense and just go  with a box.
IMO If I ran USPSA I would have
1 Limited minor..  No optic no comp fit box, with mag all scored minor.
2 limited major,, 40 cal min, 140 mags, no comp no optics
3 Limited 10/8  10 round minor, 8 round major, no comps, no optics,
4 Open minor,, no comps, slide mounted optic, 140 mags.
5 Open major, run what u brung, 170mm mags

You forgot PCC

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3 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

The number one benefit of 15 in my mind is I get, all the time, people fresh from the gunshop with a 9mm and 3 magazines. I put them in limited so they can complete stages, but it would be "nice" if they had the choice to be in production if they wanted, people like choices.

 

 

at least where you are people can choose their gender.

 

Sadly, my cz75b in 40 identifies as a production gun (and I won a state championship with it), but it only holds 12 rounds.

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33 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

You forgot PCC

forgot? or intentionally sh!tcanned?..... asking for a friend....

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3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Is already almost limited minor,,, NROI has made production an F ing joke, might as well get rid of the stupid 10 round nonsense and just go  with a box.
IMO If I ran USPSA I would have
1 Limited minor..  No optic no comp fit box, with mag all scored minor.
2 limited major,, 40 cal min, 140 mags, no comp no optics
3 Limited 10/8  10 round minor, 8 round major, no comps, no optics,
4 Open minor,, no comps, slide mounted optic, 140 mags.
5 Open major, run what u brung, 170mm mags

I really, REALLY like this.  What would you do about gear placement on belts?

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It would be kind of cool to not stick every single new shooter who shows up with a Glock 17 in Limited minor.  At least the winning stage HFs in Production would be less intimidating.
 
Nick, you're classified in Production, right?  What would it take for me to talk you into pulling out a Glock for a club match or two?
Actually that all depends on whos shooting limited and production. When we had more heat in production it was not uncommon at all for production to have higher hit factors than limited. Also for a while our regular limited winner was shooting a G34 from concealment.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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Make USPSA great again....  Keep the division in the divisions. 

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17 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Actually that all depends on whos shooting limited and production. When we had more heat in production it was not uncommon at all for production to have higher hit factors than limited. Also for a while our regular limited winner was shooting a G34 from concealment.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

You must be referring to Gabe White.  I saw him shoot at Area 1 this year.  Pretty impressive.

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Yes, but at the same time most of the stuff we can do to production guns they can't.
 

Not true anymore. As of this year you can do a great deal and still be IPSC PD legal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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3 hours ago, Matt1 said:


Not true anymore. As of this year you can do a great deal and still be IPSC PD legal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Really, so IPSC basically made a Limited minor division? 

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54 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Really, so IPSC basically made a Limited minor division? 

i think calling it limited minor is a cnn-worthy dramatic overstatement. production guns (and to some extent, other equipment/belt rules) are still based on actual duty/carry guns commonly used by military and police all over the world. Making a couple minor modifications to make them more suitable for competition doesn't turn them into anything resembling limited guns.

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11 hours ago, Tanders said:

You must be referring to Gabe White.  I saw him shoot at Area 1 this year.  Pretty impressive.

yep,

 

My point is shoot the equipment and division YOU like and if there is not enough local heat in your favorite division look at the overall results and peg your performance vs someone in a different division. Practiscore Competitor is great for this as you can combine division to see how you compare with only the divisions that interest you. Shooting a revo I regularly look at a combined low cap (Rev, SS, Prod, nobody shoots L10) or combined Irons sights 

 

 

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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i think calling it limited minor is a cnn-worthy dramatic overstatement. production guns (and to some extent, other equipment/belt rules) are still based on actual duty/carry guns commonly used by military and police all over the world. Making a couple minor modifications to make them more suitable for competition doesn't turn them into anything resembling limited guns.

I dunno. My Shadow 2 has little in common with "actual duty/carry guns commonly used by military and police all over the world". 

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3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i think calling it limited minor is a cnn-worthy dramatic overstatement. production guns (and to some extent, other equipment/belt rules) are still based on actual duty/carry guns commonly used by military and police all over the world. Making a couple minor modifications to make them more suitable for competition doesn't turn them into anything resembling limited guns.

 

So lets see Shadow 2's weight 47 oz but by our rules you could add what 4 so now where at 51. (more than my limited gun), but you get to shoot minor. You have to suffer with a DA shot for the first pull then bare with a 3 lbs SA trigger after that. Add a race holster and 15 round mags. Meanwhile standard gets 19 rounds of 40 major in a 2011 mag with a 2 lbs trigger in a gun the same weight.  Dramatic overstatement? Not really.

 

I like how you can now change basically anything just keep the slide and frame the same and that is "minor mod's for comp"

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If you make Production a 15 round capacity division, you basically make it a 9mm only as you will cut out anybody shooting 40 minor or even 45. Yes, there are some people that shoot 40 minor for production. You would also push away any crossover from idpd like ssp shooters.  I know retired police that shoots production with a  Glock G21 just because he wants to stay proficient.

 

If you want to load up mags, nothing stopping you from shooting Limited minor. 

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Why change production to 15 rounds?  USPSA has several divisions to choose from.  If you want more ammo in our gun, Shoot limited.  

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It's been a few months since this was brought up, I guess we were due.

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I'm my mind production has just become limited 10. Pretty much everything is allowed now, which seems dumb. And people with $2k pro shop 40+ oz guns probably just belong in limited.

 

If it were up to me (which luckily it isn't)

 

1) carry gun, or duty gun or something class, just as long as its not called SSP - must fit in box, (perhaps even shrink box to G17 size instead of g34, but that's not super important) must be all factory components, must be less than 30oz, must be flush fitting magazine, may change sights. This would be the new 'production' class, but emphasized around real world guns

 

2) Carry optics - same as above but with a slide mounted red dot

 

3) Open irons (which is pretty much what limited is already), or limited - it'd have to be one or the other. Basically determining what mag length to use and if comps should be allowed or not. And I think its the fair heavily modded, or high end factory tuned glocks, shadows, tangfolios, 2011s, etc would have to compete with these guns. Basically any gamer guns

 

4) Open optics - open

 

I would make all classes scored minor vs major based solely on power factor. I think the carry classes would be cool as there might be actual minor vs major competition. Also it would allow major 9mm to be a thing outside of open, which I think would be fun, especially if going the open irons comped route

 

If commie states want to do any division in L10 form, more power to them

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)...must be all factory components...


This is unenforceable, at least it's not enforceable in a fair and consistent way. That's how we ended up where we are now. Do you know factory parts look like for all the obscure guns on the production list?

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Sure don't but on most under 30oz "duty" stye pistols it's a whole lot easier to tell, especially on the parts that arcommonly replaced - RSAs, strikers, trigger bars, shoes and housing etc. If someone gets by with an OEM replacement part that nobody can tell  the difference on, or a different spring.. more power to them, congrats for cheating, if you get caught you get DQ'd. I've heard people bring up the idea of a minimum trigger pull weight too, dunno how I feel about that but might help keep people from sneakily changing springs, which would be about all you can get away with

 

 

Edited by Cj3waker

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