Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

[Tanders]

8 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Are the shooters you are wanting to shoot against in production the ones that don't want to practice?  are you really just wanting to beat more lower skilled shooters or are you looking cor actual competition? do you think going P-15 would get any of the top CO competitors to switch back? are they the ones that are trying to buy a higher placement in the combined results?

 

My $.02 

I'm not interested in having more names under min in the results, I would rather have a tight competitive match with one other shooter than easily beat 50,  I shoot Revo quite a bit and am reasonably good at it but have changed to other divisions for two of the major matches I shot this because there was nobody to push me registered. 

It does seem like Yong Lee, Hwansik Kim, and Keith Tyler contribute a lot to the popularity of Carry Optics in WA and OR.  We have a lot of other really good A and M class shooters in WA who have said they might shoot Production if the round count increased.  Most of the M and GM shooters are in Open and Limited, though.

 

I don't need more names under mine in the results.  I just want to fill in the 10% gap between the first and second place Production shooters.  I will probably end up in Limited someday, but I'm still trying to hold off loading .40 if I can avoid it.

[Tanders]

15 minutes ago, robchavous said:

I honestly don't see them going from one arbitrary round limit to another. If they do anything they'll go to something like a 125mm mag limit, which I believe Foley has voiced support for. The round limit doesn't make or break the division for me. I was more annoyed by allowing all the dumb mods. I'd much rather go to a truly stock gun division with added capacity.

Playing in CO some I do like the idea of higher capacity minor only divisions. I think there's some interesting strategy involved there.

At the end of the day I don't think anything needs to be done as the division is still going strong.

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I think the solution is that I should just move to Atlanta!  You guys have something like 5 Production GMs there, don't you?

 

125mm mags sound kind of cool.  Where did Foley say this?  I agree that hi-cap minor-only iron sights would make for an interesting division to try out.

[robchavous]

I think the solution is that I should just move to Atlanta!  You guys have something like 5 Production GMs there, don't you?
 
125mm mags sound kind of cool.  Where did Foley say this?  I agree that hi-cap minor-only iron sights would make for an interesting division to try out.

Yeah ATL is all about that Prod life. Yeah I think 5 of us around here plus a couple in Chattanooga that drive down a decent amount.

Also Sevigny is here too whenever he stops being Mr Family Man and comes back to shoot with us.

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[TrackCage]

2 hours ago, ParaLarry said:

How about factory flush for Production?

This would create yet another gear race. 

[Tanders]

2 minutes ago, robchavous said:

Yeah ATL is all about that Prod life. Yeah I think 5 of us around here plus a couple in Chattanooga that drive down a decent amount.

Also Sevigny is here too whenever he stops being Mr Family Man and comes back to shoot with us.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

Does Sevigny still shoot?  I haven't seen his name in any major results in 2 or 3 years.  Did FN shut down their shooting team?

[robchavous]

Does Sevigny still shoot?  I haven't seen his name in any major results in 2 or 3 years.  Did FN shut down their shooting team?

He hasn't done much in the last 2 years. He had to have some sort of hip surgery and he has 2 young kids so I think he took some time to heal up and do family stuff. I think he shot some Steel Challenge this year. Hopefully he'll be back around at some stuff in 2020.

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[StealthyBlagga]

I don't know what the answer is, but I stopped shooting Production because I got tired of bending over to pick up magazines 

[Mcfoto]

My personal issue with Production isn't the capacity. I think it needs "re-branding." When I first came to USPSA with my newly-acquired XDm, I looked over the divisions and thought "Production" meant "Stock." I shot my first year there until I got my .40 and went to Limited to take advantage of major power factor. Same fun, a whole lot less restrictions. In looking back, that's where I should have started. The good thing about starting with 10 round restrictions, I got good at planning reloads.

 

While I'm in the camp that we don't need more divisions, I would be interested in one that had only "stock factory guns." 

[motosapiens]

30 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

While I'm in the camp that we don't need more divisions, I would be interested in one that had only "stock factory guns." 

 

what that would really mean is 'factory-built race-only guns', and 1 or 2 mfrs that decided to participate would dominate.

 

Most people like to tinker and customize, the lack of ability to do that in the old production rules was exactly what drove me to SS instead.

[Whitefish]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

It is quite likely that the migration to CO has little to do with the capacity and lots to do with the optic, I'm not saying the capacity plays no part, in fact I bet for those new to it they would list that as a huge plus,  but I would also bet if you took a bunch of seasoned CO shooters and told them they could choose to shoot 140mm minor iron sights or 10rd optic most would go with the optic. 

I for one shot CO from the start back when it was 10 rd. Didn't like the reloads, but did it anyway. Despite having the optic, participation was rather sparse and did not take off until USPSA went to 140mm mags and the attendant capacity increase. Match participation figures before and after do not lie.There was also that increase in allowed weight that allowed the CZ's and Tanfos to get in on the CO action, but I believe most of the increase was due to the mag capacity change. Now, CO rivals Open and Limited for number of shooters around here and is growing fast. I agree that the name shooters may be driving some of that, but we had very good production shooters around here back in the day, like Chuck Anderson, and it still dwindled in participation over the years. Right, Chuck???

Edited September 19, 2019 by Whitefish

[Whitefish]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

It is quite likely that the migration to CO has little to do with the capacity and lots to do with the optic, I'm not saying the capacity plays no part, in fact I bet for those new to it they would list that as a huge plus,  but I would also bet if you took a bunch of seasoned CO shooters and told them they could choose to shoot 140mm minor iron sights or 10rd optic most would go with the optic. 

Guess we just have to disagree on your points. Given a choice, I will bet very few would willing go for 10 rds.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Whitefish

[MikeBurgess]

28 minutes ago, Whitefish said:

Guess we just have to disagree on your points. Given a choice, I will bet very few would willing go for 10 rds.

I bet if they had to choose the optic would win, it really is the defining characteristic,  l think the capacity is appealing especially to newer/lower classified shooters, but I will maintain if you went to the real competitors in CO and gave them a hard choice Limited-ish minor or 10 round optic the optic would come out on top. if you just changed the division back to 10 rounds you would see a bunch of people go to Open. 

[motosapiens]

42 minutes ago, Whitefish said:

I for one shot CO from the start back when it was 10 rd. Didn't like the reloads, but did it anyway. Despite having the optic, participation was rather sparse and did not take off until USPSA went to 140mm mags and the attendant capacity increase. Match participation figures before and after do not lie.

 

wasn't CO originally introduced in the middle of the season? Seems to me few folks are going to switch to a new division in the spring. 140mm mags seemed to coincide with off-season, at a time when folks who wanted to switch to CO would likely have been switching.  Match participation figures may not lie, but they may or may not be related to the capacity change (or the relaxation of stippling rules, etc....) 

[TrackCage]

2 hours ago, Mcfoto said:

My personal issue with Production isn't the capacity. I think it needs "re-branding." When I first came to USPSA with my newly-acquired XDm, I looked over the divisions and thought "Production" meant "Stock." I shot my first year there until I got my .40 and went to Limited to take advantage of major power factor. Same fun, a whole lot less restrictions. In looking back, that's where I should have started. The good thing about starting with 10 round restrictions, I got good at planning reloads.

 

While I'm in the camp that we don't need more divisions, I would be interested in one that had only "stock factory guns." 

 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

what that would really mean is 'factory-built race-only guns', and 1 or 2 mfrs that decided to participate would dominate.

 

Most people like to tinker and customize, the lack of ability to do that in the old production rules was exactly what drove me to SS instead.

How do you enforce this? I'm not talking about hammers and trigger shoes that ROs are too lazy to learn. I mean intimately familiar with the internals of all Production guns. How is that realistically enforced at the lower level/club matches? 

 

That said, I actually think it would be fun to run a legitimately stock gun division. Not factory race, but pick up your Glock or whatever and go to a match.

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

That said, I actually think it would be fun to run a legitimately stock gun division. Not factory race, but pick up your Glock or whatever and go to a match.

 

GSSF.

[konkapot]

This is an really old discussion.

 

To me the underlying  theme is "I want a division that makes MY life easier and caters to ME."

 

I want to shoot a revolver but hate picking up moonclips and only having 6-8 rounds and a long trigger pull and I don't like getting beat by people who practice more than I. So change the division to something it's not. For me. 

 

A variation is when somebody knows somebody who would shoot his P220 or 4506 if only it was allowed in Singlestack. 

[TrackCage]

17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

GSSF.

That works for Glocks and if you don't actually like running around with a gun. What about other manufacturers

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

That works for Glocks and if you don't actually like running around with a gun. What about other manufacturers

 

who cares? all 7 of you that want to compete with a totally unmodified gun are free to do so in the current divisions.

[cheby]

I  think that the reloads is not the main reason for Production loosing its popularity. Optics is probably the main one. The other one is  Production right now is essentially Limited 10 minor if you look at the Production legal guns. I personally know people (mostly LEOs and timmies, some of them are M level shooters) who quit shooting USPSA for that reason. It maybe ridiculous for a lot of us but it meant a lot for those folks who really wanted to compete with their carry or duty guns.      

Edited September 19, 2019 by cheby

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, cheby said:

The other one is  Production right now is essentially Limited 10 minor if you look at the Production legal guns. I personally know people (mostly LEOs and timmies, some of them are M level shooters) who quit shooting USPSA for that reason. It maybe ridiculous for a lot of us but it meant a lot for those folks who really wanted to compete with their carry or duty guns.      

 

I know people believe that, but I thought alex gutt and nils, and others proved that carry/duty guns with minor trigger mods could be competitive against the limited-lite guns like tanfo and cz.

[Zincwarrior]

I like the current Production requirements as they work as intended: a direct comparable to SSP in IDPA. I can compete in both without changing anything.

But if it went to 15  I'd be fine as well. No biggie either way.

 

Having said that, I'd proffer chances are good that a 10 round limit will be the involuntary rule nationwide after 2020.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Zincwarrior

[cheby]

12 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

 

 I'd proffer chances are good that a 10 round limit will be the involuntary rule nationwide after 2020.

Very true 

[Mcfoto]

19 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

 

Having said that, I'd proffer chances are good that a 10 round limit will be the involuntary rule nationwide after 2020.

 

Not saying your wrong, but it may depend on what flavor we get. Either the Hawaii version - "if we catch you in possession of high-cap, you're going to jail." or the Colorado, "you just can't buy new but if you already have it..."

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

I know people believe that, but I thought alex gutt and nils, and others proved that carry/duty guns with minor trigger mods could be competitive against the limited-lite guns like tanfo and cz.

As Hitler said " It's bad enough that Nils beat us all with a $400 Canik!" 

[NickBlasta]

For what it's worth, OP lives where production is dead. In other parts of the country where production is larger people might not care as much, but...

 

The number one benefit of 15 in my mind is I get, all the time, people fresh from the gunshop with a 9mm and 3 magazines. I put them in limited so they can complete stages, but it would be "nice" if they had the choice to be in production if they wanted, people like choices.

 

Two it seems like relaxing gear restrictions just makes QOL better for the shooters already in the division and less likely to push them to racier divisions. Downside is people cry loudly about the purity of the rules. Gear changes can destroy a division (like revolver and 8 shot) but it doesn't seem like anyone seriously uses a production gun that holds less than 15 rounds.

 

Three it doesn't seem like it bothers the IPSC shooters much to go back and forth so the gameplay change is probably minimal.