Production-15: Make Production Great Again!

[Tanders]

Up until this last year I have been pretty indifferent to the idea of increasing the Production mag limit to 15 rounds; I don't mind the reloads and I only shoot the division because there's nowhere else where you can competitively shoot with iron sights and 9mm (I like both of these things).  However, as CO and PCC have siphoned off more and more Production shooters in my section, I have found myself feeling increasingly favorable toward the idea since I think it will help draw more people back into the division.  I will therefore list and address the three most common points which I have heard against Production-15.

 

1.) It isn't fair to the people who live in the Commie states.

 

Limited and Open are both doing just fine in the Commie states.  The MDs there have the option of either imposing a 10-round limit on their matches or (more commonly) they can just ignore the hi-cap mag bans entirely.  Production-15 would not affect these shooters in any way.

 

2.) I like the complexity that planning around 10 rounds brings!  I also really like reloads!

 

Increasing the round count to 15 would only eliminate one reload on a 32 round field course.  You'll still get in plenty of reloads.  Also, if you're addicted to weird stage plans, Single Stack minor is a very viable alternative if you want the Production-10 experience with a much better gun.

 

3.) Increasing the round limit to 15 rounds would only be swapping one arbitrary capacity limitation for another.  Why disrupt the status quo?

 

This is the argument I usually hear from people who don't shoot Production.  Have you ever planned a stage where you have to reload every 10 rounds?  It complicated and time-consuming.  Even though stage designers are only allowed to make a maximum of 8 rounds available from a single position or view, they still manage to force Production shooters to do standing reloads ("Technically, you can see those other two targets from way over there").  If you do manage to come up with a creative plan that avoids standing loads, it means you will be taking targets in a weird order which completely disrupts the flow of the stage.  Since most people like to shoot the fastest division their wallet allows, more and more people are sticking dots on their Production guns and switching to Carry Optics ("You mean I can shoot Open/Limited HFs with a gun that can be bought with food stamps?  Sign me up!").  The weird stage planning and lack of make-up shots also makes Production one of the least newbie-friendly divisions even though it is supposed to be the entry-level division where you can be competitive with a stock gun.  Production-15 would go a long way toward increasing the division's appeal to both newbies and the aforementioned flat-broke, go-fast types.

 

 

So... how do you feel about Production-15?  Did I leave out a reason why you like the 10-round limit?  How would you go about making Production the most popular division again?  Let me know!  I really like this division and I don't want to see it to go the way of Revolver and Limited 10.

[GrumpyOne]

5 hours ago, Tanders said:

Up until this last year I have been pretty indifferent to the idea of increasing the Production mag limit to 15 rounds; I don't mind the reloads and I only shoot the division because there's nowhere else where you can competitively shoot with iron sights and 9mm (I like both of these things).  However, as CO and PCC have siphoned off more and more Production shooters in my section, I have found myself feeling increasingly favorable toward the idea since I think it will help draw more people back into the division.  I will therefore list and address the three most common points which I have heard against Production-15.

 

1.) It isn't fair to the people who live in the Commie states.

 

Limited and Open are both doing just fine in the Commie states.  The MDs there have the option of either imposing a 10-round limit on their matches or (more commonly) they can just ignore the hi-cap mag bans entirely.  Production-15 would not affect these shooters in any way.

Newbs won't have those hi-cap mags and won't be able to buy them legally in mag restricted states. 

 

Quote

 

2.) I like the complexity that planning around 10 rounds brings!  I also really like reloads!

 

Increasing the round count to 15 would only eliminate one reload on a 32 round field course.  You'll still get in plenty of reloads.  Also, if you're addicted to weird stage plans, Single Stack minor is a very viable alternative if you want the Production-10 experience with a much better gun.

Much better gun? Many Production guns (CZ and Tanfoglio's come to mind) are as good, trigger wise and accuracy wise, as a high end 1911, and cost significantly less.

Quote

 

3.) Increasing the round limit to 15 rounds would only be swapping one arbitrary capacity limitation for another.  Why disrupt the status quo?

 

This is the argument I usually hear from people who don't shoot Production.  Have you ever planned a stage where you have to reload every 10 rounds?  It complicated and time-consuming.  Even though stage designers are only allowed to make a maximum of 8 rounds available from a single position or view, they still manage to force Production shooters to do standing reloads ("Technically, you can see those other two targets from way over there").  If you do manage to come up with a creative plan that avoids standing loads, it means you will be taking targets in a weird order which completely disrupts the flow of the stage.  Since most people like to shoot the fastest division their wallet allows, more and more people are sticking dots on their Production guns and switching to Carry Optics ("You mean I can shoot Open/Limited HFs with a gun that can be bought with food stamps?  Sign me up!").  The weird stage planning and lack of make-up shots also makes Production one of the least newbie-friendly divisions even though it is supposed to be the entry-level division where you can be competitive with a stock gun.  Production-15 would go a long way toward increasing the division's appeal to both newbies and the aforementioned flat-broke, go-fast types.

 

Yes, it is true that you sometimes have to come up with a creative stage plan in Production, but the same could also be said for just about every division, with the exception of Open and PCC. IMO, if you are doing a standing reload in Production, you are either missing too much, or you are trying too hard to remove a shooting position that you most likely will have to go to anyway to get other targets. While not always true (sometimes you can remove a shooting position), it is the risk/reward that you have to balance for removing that position. Is removing that shooting position worth the cost of a possible mike or D hit (especially if you have to go to that position anyway)?

 

All that being said, 15 round Production would be fun, no doubt...but, at that point, just shoot Limited minor...more rounds than 15 (in non restricted states) and you can use the same gun as in Production. 

 

Production is a choice we make. There are quite a few choices that you can make and shoot USPSA. Don't like Production, make a choice to shoot another division. 

 

So... how do you feel about Production-15?  Did I leave out a reason why you like the 10-round limit?  How would you go about making Production the most popular division again?  Let me know!  I really like this division and I don't want to see it to go the way of Revolver and Limited 10.

 

[nasty618]

7 hours ago, Tanders said:

So... how do you feel about Production-15?

 

yawn.

[B_RAD]

I'm not for prod 15 but I'd have to agree that it may help eliminate standing reloads. I see a ton of standing reloads, or one step reloads due to the stage set up/design. I also agree that low cap shooters have to do more planning in the 5 minute walkthrough or just accept move=reload. 

 

Saying that, I'd argue if you're gonna increase prod to 15, why not SS? They'd make the mags if shooters wanted them (hi cap).

 

If you don't like the mag restrictions, go shoot something else. Can't always try to change stuff because you don't like it. 

 

 

Now, I would say that they should do away with Lim 10 and do Limited minor. Not because I do or don't like it but because we don't do Open 10/CO 10. Why Lim 10? Make it Lim Minor.  

Edited September 19, 2019 by B_RAD

[DKorn]

Isn’t IPSC Production 15 rounds?

[Racinready300ex]

31 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Isn’t IPSC Production 15 rounds?

 

Yes, but at the same time most of the stuff we can do to production guns they can't.

 

[lstange]

9 hours ago, Tanders said:

The MDs there have the option of either imposing a 10-round limit on their matches or (more commonly) they can just ignore the hi-cap mag bans entirely.  Production-15 would not affect these shooters in any way.

No option, see rule 3.3.1. Production-15 would affect shooters in commie states when they come to a match in a free state.

 

9 hours ago, Tanders said:

Single Stack minor is a very viable alternative

A single stack minor gun is a lot more expensive. Not everyone is rich, and production is currently the cheapest division.

 

9 hours ago, Tanders said:

 how do you feel about Production-15?

Don't fix what ain't broken.

[teros135]

What is it with "let's change Production"? 

 

One of the nice things about USPSA is that there are so many divisions to shoot in.  If you don't like the one you're in,  shoot in another.   If you've worked your way to the top and made M or GM and now you need another challenge, work harder or change equipment and try a new division.   Try optics; CO isn't that expensive, and you just might be able to use your current Prod gun, with an optic added.  

 

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, Tanders said:

  How would you go about making Production the most popular division again?  

 

introduce major scoring, throw away the box, 140mm mag length, and allow all mods except optics and comps.

wait, wut?

[motosapiens]

44 minutes ago, lstange said:

 

A single stack minor gun is a lot more expensive. Not everyone is rich, and production is currently the cheapest division.

 

 

You can get a very competitive gun for well under a grand. I see springfield RO advertised for $739 right now.

[ParaLarry]

I was always bugged when Carry Optics went from 10 round to 140mm mags. I thought it should have been “factory flush” and most guns would hold 17 rounds.
How about factory flush for Production?


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[lstange]

37 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

You can get a very competitive gun for well under a grand. I see springfield RO advertised for $739 right now.

A competitive production gun is still half that. I see Canik TP9 advertised for $280 right now.

[motosapiens]

Just now, lstange said:

A competitive production gun is still half that. I see Canik TP9 advertised for $280 right now.

lol.

[p7fl]

15?

Why 15.. why not 14, or 11.

Who cares about IPSC, go 17, one reload, done and Production gets its shooters back.

[Tanders]

A lot of the replies I've seen boil down to "If you don't like the capacity restriction, shoot something else."

 

As I stated before, I don't care about the capacity restriction, but a lot of other people seem to care since there has been a significant drop in Production participation after the introduction of Carry Optics.  I don't want to shoot a different division.  I like Production and I don't really feel there's anything wrong with it with 10 rounds; I just want to increase participation and Production 15 would definitely do that.  As for "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," it clearly is broken or people wouldn't be leaving in droves.

[Tanders]

3 hours ago, B_RAD said:

Now, I would say that they should do away with Lim 10 and do Limited minor. Not because I do or don't like it but because we don't do Open 10/CO 10. Why Lim 10? Make it Lim Minor.

This sounds really fun, but it would DEFINITELY finish Production off.

[MikeBurgess]

58 minutes ago, lstange said:

A competitive production gun is still half that. I see Canik TP9 advertised for $280 right now.

oddly the majority of shooters will swear to you that you can not be competitive in production with anything less than one of the S2's 

 

Also oddly you can pick up a low end 1911 for only a few bucks more than that Canik, do most people want to compete with it? no but neither do they want a entry level Canik or a GLOCK the fact that you can be competitive with anything that is reliable is beside the point.

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, Tanders said:

As I stated before, I don't care about the capacity restriction, but a lot of other people seem to care since there has been a significant drop in Production participation after the introduction of Carry Optics.

 

What makes you think it is the capacity restriction rather than the optic (or the *new*) that makes people want to shoot CO instead of prod?

[Tanders]

Just now, motosapiens said:

 

What makes you think it is the capacity restriction rather than the optic (or the *new*) that makes people want to shoot CO instead of prod?

Maybe I haven't talked to enough people, but most of the CO converts I have spoken with have said they don't like the reloads.  I'm sure it's also fun to shoot a division that puts you higher on the combined overall without putting in more practice or spending a lot of money.

[MikeBurgess]

10 minutes ago, Tanders said:

A lot of the replies I've seen boil down to "If you don't like the capacity restriction, shoot something else."

 

As I stated before, I don't care about the capacity restriction, but a lot of other people seem to care since there has been a significant drop in Production participation after the introduction of Carry Optics.  I don't want to shoot a different division.  I like Production and I don't really feel there's anything wrong with it with 10 rounds; I just want to increase participation and Production 15 would definitely do that.  As for "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," it clearly is broken or people wouldn't be leaving in droves.

what you are seeing is mostly local, there are many areas around the country where Production is doing just fine participation wise. the PNW has a few shooters that could be classified as local influencers that have gone for CO and that has driven a lot of the local shooters that way as well. 

 

 It is quite likely that the migration to CO has little to do with the capacity and lots to do with the optic, I'm not saying the capacity plays no part, in fact I bet for those new to it they would list that as a huge plus,  but I would also bet if you took a bunch of seasoned CO shooters and told them they could choose to shoot 140mm minor iron sights or 10rd optic most would go with the optic. 

[MikeBurgess]

8 minutes ago, Tanders said:

Maybe I haven't talked to enough people, but most of the CO converts I have spoken with have said they don't like the reloads.  I'm sure it's also fun to shoot a division that puts you higher on the combined overall without putting in more practice or spending a lot of money.

Are the shooters you are wanting to shoot against in production the ones that don't want to practice?  are you really just wanting to beat more lower skilled shooters or are you looking cor actual competition? do you think going P-15 would get any of the top CO competitors to switch back? are they the ones that are trying to buy a higher placement in the combined results?

 

My $.02 

I'm not interested in having more names under min in the results, I would rather have a tight competitive match with one other shooter than easily beat 50,  I shoot Revo quite a bit and am reasonably good at it but have changed to other divisions for two of the major matches I shot this because there was nobody to push me registered. 

[robchavous]

I honestly don't see them going from one arbitrary round limit to another. If they do anything they'll go to something like a 125mm mag limit, which I believe Foley has voiced support for. The round limit doesn't make or break the division for me. I was more annoyed by allowing all the dumb mods. I'd much rather go to a truly stock gun division with added capacity.

Playing in CO some I do like the idea of higher capacity minor only divisions. I think there's some interesting strategy involved there.

At the end of the day I don't think anything needs to be done as the division is still going strong.

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[Jim Watson]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Yes, but at the same time most of the stuff we can do to production guns they can't.

 

 

"Production" has gotten a long way from "the box to the match" as P Kelley says.  Apparently in order to keep the Division "interesting" and scores not too far below other guns.

Given that, why not P17?  The standard Glock, M&P, CZ magazine is 17 rounds.  Fill 'er up.   Where and while legal, of course.

 

Quote

 

"Limited and Open are both doing just fine in the Commie states.  The MDs there have the option of either imposing a 10-round limit on their matches or (more commonly) they can just ignore the hi-cap mag bans entirely.  Production-15 would not affect these shooters in any way.

Newbs won't have those hi-cap mags and won't be able to buy them legally in mag restricted states. "

 

 

The only surprise to me was that nobody got arrested for assembling magazines from "replacement parts" during AWB 94-04.  It was certainly widely practiced. 

[MikeBurgess]

3 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

"Production" has gotten a long way from "the box to the match" as P Kelley says.  Apparently in order to keep the Division "interesting" and scores not too far below other guns.

 

 

I do not believe the mods allowed are for the highlighted reason, I believe many people believe they need the mods to be competitive, but I am pretty sure they are wrong. 

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

"Production" has gotten a long way from "the box to the match" as P Kelley says.  Apparently in order to keep the Division "interesting" and scores not too far below other guns.

Given that, why not P17?  The standard Glock, M&P, CZ magazine is 17 rounds.  Fill 'er up.   Where and while legal, of course.

 

Well I know a few guys who run 40 minor this would make it a 9mm only division and those guys need new guns to stay competitive. Also, I think XDM's are 19 rounds, should they get a advantage becasue their standard capacity is higher?