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max number shots from a single vew

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1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

That is what it looks like in the diagram. i don't see how the center port could be skipped.

 

At least the way it was set up at our club, you couldn’t skip it, but you could shoot only the close 2 targets through it without actually stopping at the port. 

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1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

At least the way it was set up at our club, you couldn’t skip it, but you could shoot only the close 2 targets through it without actually stopping at the port. 

Shooting through the port from the end positions sounds like skipping the port to me, although i guess it depends on what the definition of is is.

 

fwiw, we had m and gm shooters do at least 3 different strategies on that stage. Looked like a wash to me.

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17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Shooting through the port from the end positions sounds like skipping the port to me, although i guess it depends on what the definition of is is.

 

fwiw, we had m and gm shooters do at least 3 different strategies on that stage. Looked like a wash to me.

 

I was defining skipping the port vs skipping the position based on shooting through it vs stopping at it. I didn’t stop at the port but shot through it when i shot it with CO; with Production I think i went 10 - 8 - 10 which was stupid risky but worked okay (a local club left it set up and ran it two months in a row, with the stipulation that if you shoot the same division both times they’ll only submit the first results to GFDS - they also added a couple other stages and 2 classifiers, which were different each month, to the local match just to keep things interesting). 

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On 9/17/2019 at 3:55 PM, DKorn said:

 

This is the stage in question:

 

F2BFCF55-164E-40CA-B04D-5A69AAF1124F.jpeg

 

Are there more than 3 shooting positions?

If not, then 28 is not divisible by 3 - integer math.

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Just now, pjb45 said:

 

Are there more than 3 shooting positions?

If not, then 28 is not divisible by 3 - integer math.

 

Yes, there are. Some of the targets through the port are visible from back and left and back and right of the port. This is why i like ports like this (two foot ish gap between two walls) so much better than traditional ports. 

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11 hours ago, DKorn said:

 

Yes, there are. Some of the targets through the port are visible from back and left and back and right of the port. This is why i like ports like this (two foot ish gap between two walls) so much better than traditional ports. 

Sorry. Not buying it.  It is not what targets are visible but from the diagram there appears to be only three places where targets are visible; left side, right side, and middle. 

 

If if you mean the shooter can shoot some targets from the up range side of the shooting area and proceed to the down range side of the shooting area, then I would agree with your analysis. 

 

I have experienced shooting areas areas that were too narrow to step back far enough constitute another position. 

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35 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

Sorry. Not buying it.  It is not what targets are visible but from the diagram there appears to be only three places where targets are visible; left side, right side, and middle. 

 

If if you mean the shooter can shoot some targets from the up range side of the shooting area and proceed to the down range side of the shooting area, then I would agree with your analysis. 

 

I have experienced shooting areas areas that were too narrow to step back far enough constitute another position. 

 

What I mean is that the close targets next to the wall that borders the shooting area were available from more than one position. The left target, for example, was available from standing at the opening between the walls, from the right uprange corner of the shooting area, and also from anywhere in between those 2 spots, which were several steps apart.

 

I’d try to put together a diagram but I don’t have the sketchup file for the stage so it’d be a pain. 

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2 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Sorry. Not buying it.  It is not what targets are visible but from the diagram there appears to be only three places where targets are visible; left side, right side, and middle. 

 

 

there are 3 pretty logical shooting positions, but the rule doesn't say to only look at logical and sensible positions when counting shots from a particular 'view'. Being able to see the targets just inside the middle port as well as the furthest outside target from a less logical position between the middle port and either side is what makes the stage legal imho.

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On 9/19/2019 at 7:52 AM, motosapiens said:

 

there are 3 pretty logical shooting positions, but the rule doesn't say to only look at logical and sensible positions when counting shots from a particular 'view'. Being able to see the targets just inside the middle port as well as the furthest outside target from a less logical position between the middle port and either side is what makes the stage legal imho.

Assumption: There are three and only three shooting positions.

 I did not explain  myself effectively; The stage is 28 rounds, there are three shooting position (an assumption that I am willing to forego if there are more).  3 goes into 28  three times with a remainder of three.  Those three rounds have to be shot from any combination of the three shooting positions which means that more than 8 rounds are required from any combination of the three positions.

You cannot finish the stage without being forced to fire three rounds from any combination of the three position.

Or stated differently, you are forced to fire more than 8 rounds from at least  one or more shooting positions.

 

The logic is not at what can be seen or is available, it is about being forced to fire more than 8 rounds sometime during the stage.

 

Edited by pjb45

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28 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

Assumption: There are three and only three shooting positions.

 I did not explain  myself effectively; The stage is 28 rounds, there are three shooting position (an assumption that I am willing to forego if there are more).  3 goes into 28  three times with a remainder of three.  Those three rounds have to be shot from any combination of the three shooting positions which means that more than 8 rounds are required from any combination of the three positions.

You cannot finish the stage without being forced to fire three rounds from any combination of the three position.

Or stated differently, you are forced to fire more than 8 rounds from at least  one or more shooting positions.

 

The logic is not at what can be seen or is available, it is about being forced to fire more than 8 rounds sometime during the stage.

 

 

If there were only 3 shooting positions, then yes, it would be easy enough to say this. But there are more than 3 shooting positions on the stage being discussed, given that I and others shot from other locations than the obvious 3 spots. 

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I'm just here to quote this new math stuff "3 goes into 28  three times with a remainder of three."

 

Excuse me, what?

Edited by waktasz

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3 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I'm just here to quote this new math stuff "3 goes into 28  three times with a remainder of three."

 

Excuse me, what?

😂😂😂

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5 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I'm just here to quote this new math stuff "3 goes into 28  three times with a remainder of three."

 

Excuse me, what?

I failed  🙂

 

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If that center position requires you to move both feet to see all the targets, then the stage has 4 locations.

"Location: A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position."

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Along with being able to engage the outer targets from a position between the port and the end of the wall as Moto said you also have the 2 down range walls and barrel stacks, both of which create new views.

So from the center position you have at least 3 views ( between the barrels left of the barrels right of the barrels) you can do the same at the ends of the walls left or right of down range wall down range wall to barrels, checking you want you also have barrels to the wall your standing by
So that totals up to like 9 views

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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8 hours ago, PatJones said:

If that center position requires you to move both feet to see all the targets, then the stage has 4 locations.

"Location: A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position."

 

Agreed, except change requires for allows.

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12 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Along with being able to engage the outer targets from a position between the port and the end of the wall as Moto said you also have the 2 down range walls and barrel stacks, both of which create new views.

So from the center position you have at least 3 views ( between the barrels left of the barrels right of the barrels) you can do the same at the ends of the walls left or right of down range wall down range wall to barrels, checking you want you also have barrels to the wall your standing by
So that totals up to like 9 views

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

Is a view a location?

Pat Jones nailed it if movement is required.

Now we know three things: 1. my math was wrong 2. Definition of movement 3. The original constraint of there are three positions.

Stay on point. Correct my mistake but don't change the narrative.

 

Thanks Pat for adding the clarification.

Edited by pjb45

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On 9/21/2019 at 9:47 AM, pjb45 said:

Is a view a location?

Pat Jones nailed it if movement is required.

Now we know three things: 1. my math was wrong 2. Definition of movement 3. The original constraint of there are three positions.

Stay on point. Correct my mistake but don't change the narrative.

 

Thanks Pat for adding the clarification.

Not trying to change the narrative just adding information I have been given by an RMI while setting stages for L2 and 3 matches. 

as I have had it explained to me, you have to change the view OR location but not both to be in compliance. 

As an example I shot a L2 match yesterday with a 10 round location (1 target around end of wall and 4 targets through a port, no steps were needed no other location to shoot those targets) as presented there were 3 views, 2 through the port and one around the wall. 

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4 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Not trying to change the narrative just adding information I have been given by an RMI while setting stages for L2 and 3 matches. 

as I have had it explained to me, you have to change the view OR location but not both to be in compliance. 

As an example I shot a L2 match yesterday with a 10 round location (1 target around end of wall and 4 targets through a port, no steps were needed no other location to shoot those targets) as presented there were 3 views, 2 through the port and one around the wall. 

The title of the thread is from a single view.

 

View A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view.

Location A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position.

 

I concede your point in your example.  And I would agree and I have been in matches where there is a 'sweet spot' view where I can see multiple targets without moving.  This strategy is the cool part of our game and fundamental in allowing the shooter to solve the stage.

 

I have been in matches where the MD tries to get away with not adhering to the rule by saying well you can see some from here a some from there..........thus requiring more than 8 rounds per location or view.  It becomes readily apparent to me since I shoot single stack major in a lot of matches.

 

The diagram in this thread shows a gap between two walls.  In that diagram I would not consider it to be two views.

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57 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

The title of the thread is from a single view.

 

View A range of sight or vision specific to an array of targets. In order to constitute a new "view" under this rule, the range of sight of an array of targets must be broken by a vision barrier of some sort, such that a different array of targets is seen in the new view.

Location A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire. For the purposes of this rule, a competitor will not be considered to have changed location until both feet have moved to a new physical position.

 

I concede your point in your example.  And I would agree and I have been in matches where there is a 'sweet spot' view where I can see multiple targets without moving.  This strategy is the cool part of our game and fundamental in allowing the shooter to solve the stage.

 

I have been in matches where the MD tries to get away with not adhering to the rule by saying well you can see some from here a some from there..........thus requiring more than 8 rounds per location or view.  It becomes readily apparent to me since I shoot single stack major in a lot of matches.

 

The diagram in this thread shows a gap between two walls.  In that diagram I would not consider it to be two views.

The thing is there are multiple walls and barrel stacks in the stage diagram, what rules says that only the walls that are part of the shooting area are the ones that define a view?

 

I could also see a interpretation that makes more than 8 from a view or location inclusive as in you would be required to change both view and location for it to be legal, but I have shot so many stages where one view is used from several locations to great affect,  so there would be some serious unintended consequences for such a rule. I am more in favor of keeping the stage design rules focused on safety and letting the stage designers have a pretty free hand, trying to make good designs through rules is a fools errand in my opinion.

 

PS I shoot Revo so I see SS major as a high cap division 🙂  1 extra round makes a big difference sometimes.

 

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  • Ahh, just shoot PCC and stand at one place and hose all you see.  I thought that was the purpose of allowing anything goes in PCC?  Apologies, 😇, I digress... 🙄😜😂

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On 9/20/2019 at 2:43 PM, pjb45 said:

Assumption: There are three and only three shooting positions.

 I did not explain  myself effectively; The stage is 28 rounds, there are three shooting position (an assumption that I am willing to forego if there are more).  3 goes into 28  three times with a remainder of three.  Those three rounds have to be shot from any combination of the three shooting positions which means that more than 8 rounds are required from any combination of the three positions.

You cannot finish the stage without being forced to fire three rounds from any combination of the three position.

Or stated differently, you are forced to fire more than 8 rounds from at least  one or more shooting positions.

 

The logic is not at what can be seen or is available, it is about being forced to fire more than 8 rounds sometime during the stage.

 

but the stage in question has more than 3 shooting positions. at least 5 by my count. Sure, you can get by with only 3 of them, but the other ones (in between the middle port and the ends) offer a different target presentation and are more than a step away.

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5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

but the stage in question has more than 3 shooting positions. at least 5 by my count. Sure, you can get by with only 3 of them, but the other ones (in between the middle port and the ends) offer a different target presentation and are more than a step away.

Did you read the assumption?

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1 minute ago, pjb45 said:

Did you read the assumption?

i assumed we were talking about the stage in the original post. I shot that stage. It has more than 3 shooting positions.

 

If we are talking about some other stage, then please disregard my post.

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