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Sig320 X5 Legion trigger vs Grey Guns trigger


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49 minutes ago, raz-0 said:

I have the AC trigger. 

 

I have attempted to measure how much you can depress the drop safety in the striker before disengaging it. I then tried to reference it off of the slide rails and slide rail cuts. As near as I can tell almost everyone complaining about the 2 stage "creep" of the trigger is complaining about about the transition form just the load of the drop safety (i.e. stage 1) being disengaged and adding on the resistance of the sear being engaged. 

 

The people at gray guns seem to think you can't take out pre-travel without eliminating the drop safety. 

The people at armory craft think that if you need it to be maximally safe you need to not install the pre-travel adjustment screw. 

I can tell you that I tried to and believe I have taken out a little bit without disabling the safety, but  it's negligible. And that there is a really easy and objective way to tell what is too far.  and if you remove pre-travel enough to get to "ooh that's much nicer" without the gray guns springs and sear, you are bast that point. 

 

Now this is definitely the kind of thing that someone with a mill, spare slide, and the will to do a cutaway could come up with a definitive answer to. 

 

I can tell you that I have a couple spare strikers because I've had them break on other guns. Not a one of them needs the drop safety wedge(?) thing depressed fully to disengage like some have suggested. My best guess due from measuring relative positions of things, and I'm not 100% certain this is the threshold of safety, it may be less, is that if your pre-travel adjustment  raises the lever to be even with the bottom of the dinosaur head on the disconnector, you have likely disabled the drop safety. If you have raised the lever to the top of the slide rail on the chassis, you have definitely disabled it. 

 

I got the trigger in the very first batch. Nothing in it listed a safe amount of pre-travel. So if anyone has any pointers to where they do now, I'd be glad to see it. 

 

My striker safety disengages after only 1.2 - 1.3 mm of travel. That's way before it's fully depressed. 

 

If I pull my trigger very slowly I can feel there are actually 3 different weights / stages to the pull. The first part just under 1mm or so and is just trigger wiggle with nearly nothing to it. Then there is another 1mm which increases the pull weight by a small amount (feels very much like the safety spring weight), then after that I get to the start of the break / creep where sear starts to move (which I can visually see from behind the slide). 

Edited by perob
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On 2/19/2020 at 9:24 PM, George16 said:

If that’s the GG adjustable hybrid trigger you’re talking about, the over travel is the only thing adjustable. There’s no pretravel screw on it to reduce pretravel/take up like the Keres and AC.

 

Would it be unwise / silly / crazy for a handy individual to just drill and tap a hole in the GG trigger and add a set screw to control the pretravel?  

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've been following this thread from the beginning and finally decided to dive in. Did both my X5 (which now has the TXG module) and my new X5 Legion but took two different paths. Here are my results-

 

On my X5 Legion, I first solicited help and expertise from @DCSigCZ to do a polish/clean action job. He is a certified Sig Armorer and am fortunate enough to have him at my local club. In addition to the action enhancement, we added the GG trigger bar spring and GG competition sear springs, and he added a small thinly wound spring to act as an overtravel sleeve. Kept my stock Legion trigger shoe. The difference was phenomenal. I went from 4lbs-10oz (measured after the first 1000k) 10-pull avg to just below 2lbs-10oz. But in addition to the loss of trigger pull weight, the overall feel of the trigger improved dramatically. Obviously it's lighter but also much smoother and more crisp with a shorter reset and negligible overtravel. Super pleased with how it shoots now. During the course of several Bill Drills, I was able to run some really fast (while still staying in the A-zone) splits; averaging .15 -.16 with a few .12, .13, .14 thrown in. This pistol was already better than I was but I can truly see the difference a nice trigger makes.

 

On to my original X5, which now has right at 10K rounds thought it, I chose to forgo the action job and see what just dropping in the new GG Adjustable Straight-Face Trigger Competition Kit would do. It came with the new GG straight face adjustable trigger and I used the original competition trigger bar spring, original comp sear springs, sear and safety lever pin. It also comes with a "snappy reset" TB spring and Intermediate sear springs, which I did not use. In any case, I took it apart and changed out the parts. All I can say is wow... I went from 4-1/2lbs to 2-1/2lbs, and it feels great, and the adjustable trigger set screw virtually eliminated any over travel. Truth be told I feel like a lot of "polishing" happens just as a result of sending 10K rounds down range. The overall feel of the FCU is almost on par with my Legion post-enhancement. Ran some really good times and was much easier to shoot overall. For what it's worth, I do like the GG trigger in my old X5 better; it has a slightly shorter reset reach and the break is "closer" to me, which is noticeable to me with my short fingers. 

 

Hopefully this info helps someone decide which way to go. I believe on a newer pistol, the action enhancement is a definite must but would obviously help regardless of how many rounds have been sent down range through the pistol...

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Good feedback.  I've been happy with my GG flat adjustable kit too but I might have to try the snappy reset spring because the competition one almost makes it feel too slow to reset. 

 

On an unrelated note GG did an IG live yesterday and mentioned that they omitted the pretravel screw so you can't disable the safety mechanism.

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16 minutes ago, Michael303 said:

Good feedback.  I've been happy with my GG flat adjustable kit too but I might have to try the snappy reset spring because the competition one almost makes it feel too slow to reset. 

 

On an unrelated note GG did an IG live yesterday and mentioned that they omitted the pretravel screw so you can't disable the safety mechanism.

That actually makes a lot of sense, and is in line with what several folks on here have already voiced as being a concern...

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On 3/21/2020 at 4:32 PM, LMS said:

Guess I'll give it a try as is before I add a pre-travel screw.

In my estimation it seems unnecessary beyond doing it for the curiosity.  The pretravel on mine is minimal as it is and certainly not a detriment to performance.

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On 3/21/2020 at 6:13 PM, Michael303 said:

Good feedback.  I've been happy with my GG flat adjustable kit too but I might have to try the snappy reset spring because the competition one almost makes it feel too slow to reset. 

 

On an unrelated note GG did an IG live yesterday and mentioned that they omitted the pretravel screw so you can't disable the safety mechanism.

I have the full GG kit in my M17.  I installed it before they came out with the new kit.  I switched back to the factory trigger bar spring and it seemed to help the sluggish reset and didn’t change my pull weight much at all.  It was 3.5 right after kit install with GG trigger return spring, and is now at 3.5 after several thousand rounds with the factory trigger bar spring.  

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47 minutes ago, Michael303 said:

In my estimation it seems unnecessary beyond doing it for the curiosity.  The pretravel on mine is minimal as it is and certainly not a detriment to performance.

I agree...

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  • 1 month later...

I have a stock X5 Le gion trigger but I did some personal mods for the take up and creep. I added some material to the trigger bar and trigger.  This did a great job of cleaning that up.

Yes I did use JB Weld for a semi permanent test.. and if it works then get it tig welded (if I can find someone in the area), assuming don't buy a replacement trigger. Such a easy mod..

 

As for the break.. I'm not too trilled with it when compared to some of my other handguns, M&P9C with APEX.. so I am thinking about modding it or replacing it.  From reading the pages of this post.. I wasn't clear if GG or the other brands have a crisp break. I read that likely I would have to work on the sear if I do it myself. If I break it, I can always buy the replacement parts.. Anyone have any information where I can learn more about working on the break?

20200327_214059 (Medium).jpg

20200327_214358 copy (Medium).jpg

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"I wasn't clear if GG or the other brands have a crisp break."

 

Break quality happens at the striker lug/sear interface.

I recommend the $149 kit from Gray Guns and you get the adjustable trigger plus a better assortment of springs than his cheaper kit.

 

grayguns-p320-hybrid-competition-system-

Edited by DirectDrive
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7 hours ago, DirectDrive said:

"I wasn't clear if GG or the other brands have a crisp break."

 

Break quality happens at the striker lug/sear interface.

I recommend the $149 kit from Gray Guns and you get the adjustable trigger plus a better assortment of springs than his cheaper kit.

Does the trigger have a an crisp break?  I've read conflicting information on this. Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Ryo said:

Does the trigger have a an crisp break?  I've read conflicting information on this. Thanks.

I'll say it again....

Break quality happens at the striker lug/sear interface.

 

You don't get that "magic break" from a P320 trigger alone. 

The P320 trigger is just a lever. Depending on the design, you can gain more or less leverage.

The quality of the break happens at the striker lug/sear. When those two parts separate, that's your break. 

 

I was chasing "stacking" (creep) right after the "wall" on a P320F.

I threw everything at it and reduced the creep but could not get rid of it completely. 

I was fortunate to be gifted a Gray Guns sear kit and the full spring kit.

As soon as I put that Gray Guns sear in that pistol, the magic happened.

No more creep. I can't say "glass rod break" but not too far away from that.

The pistol now has the best striker-fired trigger that I have ever pulled.

I used the light group of springs and pull weight is 2lbs measured with a Lyman digital.

 

 

 

 

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I understand it is between the components.  Just wondering if GG was any good.. looks like you answered it.  Thanks!

Sounds like it's much closer to what I want which is a glass wall break.. or close to it. 

 

My M&P9C with the Apex trigger has an excellent break.. which I hope I can get my X5 Legion to that level.  If I can't I'm okay since it's a smooth trigger pull, but closer I get it, the more happy I would be. Thank again for your information.

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On 5/5/2020 at 7:41 PM, DirectDrive said:

I think that the best triggers (break quality) in "P320 World" are pistols with the FULL Gray Guns kit or a Robert Burke hand-tuned trigger system.

Anything out of NH is a distant 3rd.

 

Who/what is NH?

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Does Grayguns sell their sear separately from their trigger?

 

I'm pretty happy with the over-travel (essentially none) and pre-travel (I want to keep the striker safety engaged when the trigger is released) of the stock X5 Legion trigger. But, like @DirectDrive, I'm not thrilled with the break - there's too much creep for my taste.

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On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2020 at 4:25 PM, DirectDrive said:

I'll say it again....

Break quality happens at the striker lug/sear interface.

 

You don't get that "magic break" from a P320 trigger alone. 

The P320 trigger is just a lever. Depending on the design, you can gain more or less leverage.

The quality of the break happens at the striker lug/sear. When those two parts separate, that's your break. 

 

I was chasing "stacking" (creep) right after the "wall" on a P320F.

I threw everything at it and reduced the creep but could not get rid of it completely. 

I was fortunate to be gifted a Gray Guns sear kit and the full spring kit.

As soon as I put that Gray Guns sear in that pistol, the magic happened.

No more creep. I can't say "glass rod break" but not too far away from that.

The pistol now has the best striker-fired trigger that I have ever pulled.

I used the light group of springs and pull weight is 2lbs measured with a Lyman digital.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I find as I have completed  more dry fire with each of my P320 FCUs with the Gray Guns Triggers it seems like I have more and more creep.  To the point where there seems a bit more mushy creep than I really want.  I felt the trigger was great in all aspects when I first installed them, and felt the Gray Guns trigger definitely a superior trigger and a few hundred trigger pulls than any P320 trigger I have in my gun safe. I have my original X5 Legion trigger installed into another X5 and the break is much better on that trigger.  Granted that trigger does not have no where near as many trigger pulls.  Maybe that trigger gets mushy after a bit of time as well.  Curious to how much time you have on that trigger and if you notice the same thing in regards to creep with that trigger as you get more and more time on it?

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24 minutes ago, BobRockefeller said:

Does Grayguns sell their sear separately from their trigger?

 

I'm pretty happy with the over-travel (essentially none) and pre-travel (I want to keep the striker safety engaged when the trigger is released) of the stock X5 Legion trigger. But, like @DirectDrive, I'm not thrilled with the break - there's too much creep for my taste.

No the sear is not available separately.

And then you have to choose which kit.

Do I want the non-adjustable trigger ?

Or do I want the adjustable trigger ?

 

I beat my head against the wall trying to get rid of that creep with mostly OEM components.

It wasn't until I installed the GG sear that the creep was finally gone.

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1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

I find as I have completed  more dry fire with each of my P320 FCUs with the Gray Guns Triggers it seems like I have more and more creep.  To the point where there seems a bit more mushy creep than I really want.  I felt the trigger was great in all aspects when I first installed them, and felt the Gray Guns trigger definitely a superior trigger and a few hundred trigger pulls than any P320 trigger I have in my gun safe. I have my original X5 Legion trigger installed into another X5 and the break is much better on that trigger.  Granted that trigger does not have no where near as many trigger pulls.  Maybe that trigger gets mushy after a bit of time as well.  Curious to how much time you have on that trigger and if you notice the same thing in regards to creep with that trigger as you get more and more time on it?

You mention nothing about the sear.

Are you using the FULL Gray Guns kit which includes an array of springs and a Gray Guns SEAR.

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43 minutes ago, DirectDrive said:

You mention nothing about the sear.

Are you using the FULL Gray Guns kit which includes an array of springs and a Gray Guns SEAR.

 

Sorry I should have been more clear.  The entire Gray Guns drop in kits have been installed on both P320 FCUs.  Sear, Springs, and Trigger. 

 

Do worn Sear Springs contribute to a crappy Break? 

 

How do you know when to replace sear Springs (I understand this question is possibly off topic)?

Edited by Boomstick303
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3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Sorry I should have been more clear.  The entire Gray Guns drop in kits have been installed on both P320 FCUs.  Sear, Springs, and Trigger? 

OK.

Is the question mark a typo  ?

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Do worn Sear Springs contribute to a crappy Break? 

I would say so.

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

How do you know when to replace sear Springs (I understand this question is possibly off topic)?

I would say that when "break quality" starts to degrade, it's time to renew the springs.

 

I recommend that you email Gray Guns Tech Support and describe what kit you have and that your trigger break quality has eroded.

Gray Guns will get you squared away.

Be advised, when emailing Gray Guns always check your Spam Box or Junk Mail box.

For some reason Gray Guns correspondence can get caught up there.

 

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