Hold over at distance ???

[brian45acp]

Going to venture out of uspsa and do a real rifle shoot with my pcc. I run a GMR 13 with a 13.5 barrel and 1.5 comp to get legal length here in nazi California. 

 

My load is 124grn jhp 1150-1170fps and I have the delta point pro 2.5 moa which will help for distance. I hate the triangle so have always went to the dot despite it being a bit small for typical uspsa shooting. I’m used to it but glad it’s what I have for this upcoming match. 

 

I am zeroed right now at 15-20yrds but I hear zero at 25yrds is ideal so I’ll make an adjustment.

 

my question is what is your guys suggestions for hold over at 50,100,200 yards? I been looking online for graphs and as far as I can tell 50 should be basically zero, 100 will be 12 inch high, and 200 will be 24inch high for hold. 

 

With any luck I’ll be able to take a few distance shots before the match but as of now I don’t have a place to do it so I need some advice.

 

thanks guys 

Edited September 9, 2019 by brian45acp

[MemphisMechanic]

You absolutely need to shoot your ammo through your own gun before this match if you want to be able to hit anything consistently.

[Nevadazielmeister]

4 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

You absolutely need to shoot your ammo through your own gun before this match if you want to be able to hit anything consistently.

 

Geesh Memphis, stop screwing around and just give him the answer he is asking for. Let's not worry him with terms like DOPE, Density Altitude, Wind Deflection, MILs, MOA, and Sight height offset. And we certainly should not bother him about muzzle velocity and point blank range. Heaven forbid!!!

 

All joking aside. OP, this advise from Memphis is key and the only way you will be able to figure out the solution for your rifle. I would break it down in much easier terms for your setup. As you will not have any real data to use to get your firing solution, I would simply hold over based on the target itself.  At 50 yards, hold center mass. 100 yards top of target. 150 yards, Half target above the top. 200 yards, full target above top of target. 

 

However, I would warn that it might be a bit reversed, so don't ignore the data. You may find that the shots are hitting low on the target at 50 yards but then high at 100 yards. It all depends on your setup. 

 

As an example, I shot my Limcat in 38 Super at 1,350 FPS with a 124 grain bullet using the 2.5 MOA dot on the Delta Point Pro. I was holding dead on for the 100 and 150 yard targets, but had to hold at the top of the 200 yard target. The 250 yard target I was holding a half target high, but at that distance, I have to also hold left to account for wind. Took me about 4 shots to finally hit the target at 250. 

 

Good luck and PM me with any questions. I have years and years of long range experience for assistance. 

[brian45acp]

Sounds good Nevada, I am going to shoot a local uspsa match Saturday and already cleared with the director to shoot some distance steel after the match. 

 

Do you think I should bump my load at all or just stick with what works? I use my same load for CO in my g17 as I do my pcc so what I have developed is the best middle of the road to do this. I’m just wondering if I should get the pcc load to 1200 or maybe I’m close enough it won’t really matter. 

[mrd]

If I were to shoot rifle matches with my PCC rig, I'd start developing a load for accuracy on the hot side and build everything else around that load, including confirming actual hold-overs - not just estimate or calculate. Actually, that's what I'm starting to do anyway... 

[MemphisMechanic]

Agreed. If I were shooting distance in a match I’d abandon my soft, flat handgun ammo and load some screaming high-quality 115gr FMJs to both (1) hunt for more accuracy and (2) flatten my trajectory out some.

 

I’ve shot my coated-bullet USPSA loads against some quality 115 +P factory JHP ammo through my PCC. Group sizes are drastically smaller at just 25 yds.

 

Sure, it’d slow you down a second or so with dot bounce on up-close arrays, but you’d make up for it on the longrange stuff than can sasily add up over 30 seconds.

Edited September 9, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[mrd]

I'm thinking that if I develop an accuracy load and then tune the recoil/buffer system to that load, then difference in dot bounce will be quite insignificant compared to a softer load. It is a rifle, after all. At least after some getting used to it, I'm hoping the benefit from higher accuracy will more than compensate for the recoil. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by mrd

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: You want to use a good 124 grain bullet going 138-141PF for 100 yards or more. With my old setup I had to aim 8" high at 120 yards with a 10 yard zero at sea level. Jacketed hollow points worked the best for me with a 16" barrel. You will have to check with your scope setup and PCC. Thanks, Eric

[Nevadazielmeister]

10 hours ago, brian45acp said:

Sounds good Nevada, I am going to shoot a local uspsa match Saturday and already cleared with the director to shoot some distance steel after the match. 

 

Do you think I should bump my load at all or just stick with what works? I use my same load for CO in my g17 as I do my pcc so what I have developed is the best middle of the road to do this. I’m just wondering if I should get the pcc load to 1200 or maybe I’m close enough it won’t really matter. 

 

I would say that accuracy is about barrel harmonics and is not a drag race. But again, you would have to have an accurate enough optic to confirm those kind of things. Just get general data on previous engagements (DOPE) and stick with it. Far far too many people play with their reloading parameters and forget about the most important aspect, the shooter. 

 

Good luck. You will have fun shooting at longer range targets (past 100 let's say) and you will learn a lot.  

[Bwillis]

Mbx 13.6” barrel 2.5” mbx comp 

mro 1/3 scalarworks 25 yards zero  

115 grain jhp  4.6gr wsf, cci 500 primer 1210fps 

 

0-3 yards  poa 2.75” high or 1/2 over top of head for poi center of head box 

5-7 yards  poa 2” high top of head on perf for  center poi headbox 

10 yards poa 1” high for center poi headbox 

13-25 poa poi 

 

50 yards poi 1" high 

100 yards poi 3” low 
200 yards poi 15”  low

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Bwillis

[brian45acp]

Thank you guys.

 

my vortex range finder just arrived and I’m set to take it out this Friday  and try to find a place far enough to test things out.

 

I will chrono my loads again and confirm the fps as well. I also need to check zero and now that I have a range finder re zero at 25yrds exactly. 

 

Sounds like I will mostly have to figure this out in the course of fire but it’s possible I can get a few shots off under practice at my local range. 

[bwikel]

What size will the targets be from 100-200 yards? You will definitely need to confirm your holds from 100 to max distance to determine your dope. Strelok is helpful to get you in the ballpark for a hold but still need be confirmed. 

[HoMiE]

I would ask What’s the average target distance going to be and then adjust my zero for that distance. With a 100 yd zero, your typical uspsa target distance holder overs are about the same, you would be almost 4” high at 50yds. Out to 200 yds you’re going to have to hold more than 18”. 

[Paul49]

Picked up my PCC on a Monday, took it out to zero at 25 yards on Thursday. Shot Steel Challenge Saturday then a rifle/PCC match Sunday with six USPSA like stages. Aboout half of the stages were CQB style USPSA with cardboard targets and barrier screens. The other three stages had all that and more distant targets. One stage had three black rectangular steel targets ranging from 50 to 130 yards. My Ruger PCC 9mm was zeroed at 25 yards and hit the 130 yard target by holding at the center of the top border. Don’t ask me the load, they were reloads bought from another range at one of their semi-annual sales. One stage had rifle targets at 250, 300 and 350, where the PCC competitors instead engaged orange resealing poppers at about 30-40 yards that were maybe 18” tall and no more than 3-4” wide. They were quite the challenge for side to side accuracy and sufficed to slow us down as much as the 250-350 yard rifle targets slowed the .223/5.56 shooters. 

[S&W627shooter]

My load is a 147 grain bullet doing 940fps.  I have a Holosun 510 zeroed at 25 yards, and the other day, I tried to hit a popper at 225 yards.  I had to use the bottom (6 o'clock) hash mark on the big 65 MOA ring to hit it. 

[Silver_Surfer]

Don't forget about sight over bore for the close shots!

[tna9001]

On 9/9/2019 at 9:37 AM, brian45acp said:

Going to venture out of uspsa and do a real rifle shoot with my pcc. I run a GMR 13 with a 13.5 barrel and 1.5 comp to get legal length here in nazi California. 

 

My load is 124grn jhp 1150-1170fps and I have the delta point pro 2.5 moa which will help for distance. I hate the triangle so have always went to the dot despite it being a bit small for typical uspsa shooting. I’m used to it but glad it’s what I have for this upcoming match. 

 

I am zeroed right now at 15-20yrds but I hear zero at 25yrds is ideal so I’ll make an adjustment.

 

my question is what is your guys suggestions for hold over at 50,100,200 yards? I been looking online for graphs and as far as I can tell 50 should be basically zero, 100 will be 12 inch high, and 200 will be 24inch high for hold. 

 

With any luck I’ll be able to take a few distance shots before the match but as of now I don’t have a place to do it so I need some advice.

 

thanks guys 

Your holdovers are going to be particular to your rifle and to the ammo you are using. Did you get your velocity data with a chronograph? You'll need accuracy velocity data, drag data for the bullet you're using and  a good ballistic solver. Once you get that data then you've got to verify the data by shooting the load you'll use in competition. 

[brian45acp]

Sorry I never followed up with this post. Just wanted to thank you guys for the help and advice. Turns out I took the match win using a pcc lol. That was a hard match and guys were using real AR's with scopes etc. I did very well on the distance stuff and fundamentals helped more than hold over concerns. 

 

https://practiscore.com/results/new/93709

[Salsantini]

I use an app on my phone called iSnipe.  You can put in bullet weight, velocity, etc. and it will give you the drop.  Very handy.

http://www.isnipe.ca/

 

[brian45acp]

20 minutes ago, Salsantini said:

I use an app on my phone called iSnipe.  You can put in bullet weight, velocity, etc. and it will give you the drop.  Very handy.

http://www.isnipe.ca/

 

thank you, I am going to save that right now

[fyr4efect]

On 12/20/2019 at 10:10 AM, brian45acp said:

thank you, I am going to save that right now

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=10bd88a7

 

Im using PD JHP 124gr. 4.9gr WSF 1.111 oal. 1200 fps. At 100 yds I hold 3-4 " or top of 8" steel. I have this app on my phone.