Question on Blue Bullets Diameter

[Kenstone]

2 hours ago, Miranda said:

 

the thread has moved a bit since this post, thus the quote.

 

hi kenstone,

you get both answers...

I want cheap ammo. buying blue bullets is not  my idea of cheap.

I found a few hundred pounds of wheel weights ... cheap...

 

second answer is a little more involved and sorta involves the first answer.

I made bullets per Lee Precision instructions...

that left something to be desired.

I went looking for advice on how to cast bullets. 

found castboolits and rotometals and the LA silhouette club.

As a way to learn about a subject, a forum also leaves something to be desired.

to skip a lot of details that happened here

I'll go with I tested what I read.  then compared my notes with the various people's posts

what I got was a sense of how the ones who knew what to do said or wrote things.

I call it learning to read...

 

pretty much all  said coating a lead bullet reduces smoke.

they also agreed that what worked for your gun in terms of diameter and hardness

seemed to stay as required to prevent leading.

 

I am not big on re-inventing the wheel.  I trusted them and I left the powder-coating aside as un-needed expense.

I did have a lot of fun smoking magic wax lubes... I had the ingredients... acquired cheap.

 

all that said...

let me point out that no one has said anything about the dimensions of blue bullets except your re-sizing them.

and my advice was try the .356 size and see if they are good.

 

The blue bullets coating could be very very thick and the lead core has no chance of being cut by the rifle lands.

buuut my advice would still be the same.

the copper jacketed bullets I have measured and that seemed accurate were never smaller than .355 and some were close to .356

so I would say the average of the few I checked to be .3555 inches.  this was a dial caliper and my mark 1 eyeball and thumb.

my digital caliper said 355 a lot and a few 356... so I tried another gauge.

 

I do not KNOW what causes inaccuracy... I do KNOW what dimensions get me accuracy.

Important to note is that the second part is absolutely not a comment on the first part.

 

My ammo problems with lead were bullets falling out of the cases after I shifted to 357.

once I had got the 38 expander working in the press I've had no real problems with the ammo.

 

again, the other reason for saying try the 356 size is that 9mm dies will build good ammo.

fat bottomed bullets need bigger expanders.

 

miranda

 

OK 

"let me point out that no one has said anything about the dimensions of blue bullets except your re-sizing them"

um have you noticed the title of this thread and what the OP posted?

just sayin'

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Kenstone

[Miranda]

not lost on me.

those details are labels for 9mm bullets, they are not dimensions for us to consider.

I know what size MG 124 HP are and they are a wee bit bigger than 355.

no one has said what size are the blue bullets that arrive when one orders 355.

 

 I have stated my various lead bullet sizes and you stated your sizes,

as such there is no reason to doubt those numbers and their meanings.

 

If I were selling lead bullets I'd make the 355 label in the dimension of 3555 inches

and the labeled 356 in the dimension of 3565. if at all possible...

 

you took a different path to get to your dimensions than me.

despite that, we both have extremely close conclusions.

 

miranda

Edited September 12, 2019 by Miranda
removed the quote... mashed wrong button

[Miranda]

56 minutes ago, Kenstone said:

No offense taken.

I enjoy how you lump everything together with your "If you don't even know basic stuff like what causes leading though" type statements... as a way to not answer explain anything you proclaim as the absolute definitive explanation.

 

I did NOT post any theories about how lead bullets work, only theories and experiences with coated bullets...

 

I do know that wax lube does not seal the barrel as you stated above, but I let that slide, as well as any discussion about obturation as it relates to leading/sealing/(lead) bullet hardness.

You (and Miranda) tend to lump cast/waxed lubed and coated bullets together as both having the same traits/requirements for successful loading, I do not think that at all.

I know anything I mention will fall on deaf ears and your only rebut will be about me and my lack of experience, not coated bullets, the subject of this thread.

 

No need to respond here in your typical condescending manner as I'm about to move on from here (and you) as the discussion seems to going into the cast bullet/wax lubed bullet direction.

Take the last word if you feel the need to, but know I won't be reading it.

quoted because the thread moved on a bit and I got lumped in...

 

hi kenstone,

google says alan greenspan said:

"I know you believe you understand what you thought I said but I am not at all certain what you heard is what I meant"

some one here on this forum uses it as a signature...

 

If anything, what I didn't want to say is that the reason people buy 355 sized blue bullets for 9mm
is because that is the size 9mm bullets are.

Please do not ignore that 9mm bullets should be copper jacketed.

 

there is a little sentence I should write as the next step.

please give it a guess.... 

 

so I have to try to say the "next step"  in another way.

No matter what lead bullet bullet you chose, for proper fit to the barrel bore,
the lead bullet should be a bit bigger in diameter.

 

if you know a polite way to state that perhaps the popular choice is not the right choice,
I'd like to hear it.

miranda

 

[Yondering]

On 9/11/2019 at 9:04 PM, Kenstone said:

 

You (and Miranda) tend to lump cast/waxed lubed and coated bullets together as both having the same traits/requirements for successful loading, I do not think that at all.

 

This is kind of an important point: Coated bullets ARE cast bullets, for the most part. I'm sure some of the commercial stuff is coated swaged lead, but for the most part when we talk about coated bullets we are talking about cast bullets. Wax lubed and coated bullets have the same requirements for loading and shooting successfully, and interact with the barrel the same way. The coating does give us more flexibility in alloy hardness and sizing, but the general principles are the same and discussions of cast bullets are relevant.

[Yondering]

On 9/11/2019 at 7:07 PM, looking4reloadingdeals said:

Yondering, I would be interested in pictures if you posted them. I have recovered a bullet or two that I didn’t end up saving. I would be interested in your analysis of them.
 

 

Ok I took some pictures of bullets I had on hand since a couple of you are interested. This will be a series of posts with comments about what I see in each picture. Hopefully this is useful.

 

First lets look at some jacketed and solid copper bullets, and the differences between those and lead. 

 

Right off the bat we see very distinct rifling marks in these bullets from the rifling lands. Look at the area that contacted the rifling grooves though - they only make partial contact (sometimes not at all, with some bullets & barrels), and there is room for powder gasses to leak past in those areas. Notice the built up "burrs" at the edges of the rifling marks; those raised burrs demonstrate the amount of gap between the bullet and rifling grooves.

 

The exception is the far right bullet in the second pic, a Barnes solid copper fired in a Glock bore; notice the flats instead of grooves from the rifling and lack of raised edges. I'm fairly certain that bullet didn't make very much contact in the grooves (actually rounds) in the Glock bore. 

 

These pics show how a bore sized jacketed bullet doesn't completely seal the bore, but can tolerate gas leakage because the thick copper or gilding metal resists gas cutting.

 

 

[Yondering]

Now lets look at some coated bullets that worked correctly. From examining these fired bullets, I conclude these worked perfectly.

 

The rifling marks are clear and not smeared, indicating the alloy was hard enough to grip the rifling well.

The bore riding areas of the driving bands all show full contact with the bore, which tells us the bullets were sized correctly (about .002" larger than bore diameter in this case) and that the bullet alloy was soft enough for the bullets to obturate (i.e. seal) the bore.

There are no signs of gas leakage or erosion of the coating past the base corners of the bullets.

 

BTW these and all other coated bullets in this series of pics are coated by me with a TGIC polyester powder coat of various colors. The green coating in this pic actually had some blue mixed in as well; I don't normally recommend mixing colors but this one worked out fine. 

 

[Yondering]

Here is an example of when things go wrong with lead bullets. The middle bullet in this picture suffered severe gas cutting, which caused both leading in the barrel and lead smoke that the shooter or bystanders could inhale. Gas cutting is seen as eroded areas in the coating or lead; it looks a lot like steel cut with a cutting torch, which is a similar phenomenon. Several things went wrong with this one:

 

- The bullet was sized right at bore diameter (.356")

- the alloy was too hard to allow the bullet to expand and seal the bore

- the case was crimped too much, causing damage to the coating and reducing diameter of the bullet under the crimped area

 

We see very minor gas cutting on the left bullet, shown as small pits near the base of the bullet. This is seen by the shooter as lead smoke, but doesn't leave any significant lead in the barrel. This bullet shot accurately and would be considered good if we weren't examining the bullet.

Notice the slip marks in the rifling engagement; as the bullet initially engaged the rifling it resisted spinning, but then followed the rifling by the time it was fully engaged. A harder alloy reduces this but does not eliminate it; you can see signs of it even on the jacketed bullets pictured above. If the bullet is soft enough to slip when fully engaged (we see the grooves in the bullet wider than the lands in the barrel rifling when this happens), then gas leaks past in the groove and causes gas cutting.

 

The bullet on the right worked correctly and was accurate with no lead smoke. It was sized to .3575" for a .355" bore. 

 

 

[Yondering]

Here are more examples of gas cutting. The bullet on the bottom right suffered gas leakage in the corners of the rifling, which caused gas cutting and lead smoke. This one may have deposited some lead in the corners of the rifling in the bore.

 

The bullets in the top row all shot well, but show small pits of gas cutting and produced some lead smoke. Most coated bullet shooters would consider these adequate or even good, but examining the recovered bullets shows we can do better. Using a larger size (.358 vs .356, etc), seating the bullet straight so it starts straight in the bore, and powder choice are all things that could help here. Sometimes everything about the bullet is correct, but certain powders like Titegroup can cause lead smoke from small pits like the two green bullets on the upper left.

 

BTW notice how well the coating held up on that expanded .45 bullet in bottom right - powder coating when done right is pretty tough stuff. 

 

[Yondering]

This one is another example of a bullet that shot well, didn't lead the barrel, and only caused minor smoke, but examination shows some issues.

 

In this case, the bullet alloy was too soft and it was crimped too much. The crimp sized the bullet down, it started at .3575" but was something smaller when it engaged the rifling. Notice the pits from gas cutting and the eroded triangle of coating from gas leakage at the edge of the rifling. 

 

[Yondering]

These are subsonic rifle bullets I designed that aren't pretty but worked well enough, with one exception (far right in bottom pic).

These were cast as a 255gr hollow point and sized at .360" for a .358" bore (35 caliber rifle). 

 

In the top pic, the left bullet worked perfectly. It was sized correctly for the bore, had good engagement with the rifling, and the coating held up well. 

The bullet on the right suffered from thin coating which wore off in the bore; it didn't lead the barrel and didn't result in any gas leakage or cutting, but should have had a thicker coating.

 

In the bottom pic we have the same two green bullets, along with some blue coated bullets that did not work as well. This particular blue coating was different than my normal brand and didn't work as well at higher pressure; it was worn off by the rifling on most of the bullets I recovered. 

The blue bullet on the far right was started slightly crooked in the bore; this allowed some gas leakage and gas cutting pits, which I saw as light lead wash in the bore and lead smoke. 

 

 

[Yondering]

This one is an example that most of us encounter sometimes with 9mm - seating a bullet into the internal case taper, especially on cases like CBC, Aguila, etc where the taper extends closer to the case mouth.

You can see the lack of rifling engagement on the base of this bullet; it's not a boat tail or bevel base, it was just sized down by the internal case taper. This one may have been run through a Lee factory crimp die which just makes the problem worse, but it was a while ago so I don't remember for sure.

 

 

 

[Yondering]

Here are a couple examples of what happens to lube groove bullets sometimes when the grooves are not filled with wax - when pressure is high enough to deform the lead, the grooves collapse and shortens the bullet. Sometimes this happens evenly and the bullet still shoots accurately, but sometimes it's uneven. I've only seen this occur with high pressure pistol and rifle loads, never with something milder like minor 9mm. The bullets in this picture should have been heat treated for hardness or cast from a harder alloy. 

 

[Yondering]

OK last one, this one is just kind of interesting. It's a 125gr 9mm fired in a factory Glock bore, and shows the unique pattern of flats and rounds in the Glock "polygonal" bore.

FWIW this bullet worked perfectly with good accuracy and no leading or smoke. For those who think you can't shoot lead in a Glock barrel - this is what they look like when it's done right, whether it's coated or wax lubed.

 

I hope these pictures are helpful to some of you, and let me know if you want more pics of something in particular.

 

 

 

[Steve RA]

Very informative, thanks for going to the trouble of posting all the above !     

[OdinIII]

Yep, thanks for taking the time to post this information. Is it common to try to capture fired bullets to verify that there are no reloading issues? I had not thought of that possibility before.

I’ve just ordered 7000 125 gr BBI’s and these will be my first coated bullets. I’ve been loading JHP’s and I’m both excited and worried about moving to the BBI’s but I’ve got to figure out a way to reduce cost or reduce rounds fired. I’m got to try the cheaper bullets first.

[Miranda]

the photos and explanations are very useful.

 

I have not recovered any of what I have been tossing downrange.

 

most of my cast bullets and decisions of how to have good performance

(and yes I am rethinking my results.)

has been what they leave in the barrel and how they print in targets.

I may have to build a pistol range for recovery purposes...

 

much appreciated.

 

miranda

[BryceA]

On 9/9/2019 at 7:42 AM, looking4reloadingdeals said:

I haven’t experienced it either, but I’m trying to avoid it. Iv heard bad stories about people having problems with leading them they loose accuracy, then they have scrub their barrels forever to try and get it out, and it can cause excessive pressure. I’m just trying to avoid it as much as possible

 

TL;DR: I've had lots of leading issues and most of the blue bullets, even in .355", are good to go in my most stubborn barrel.

 

Perhaps a bit late here but I had the same question with the blue bullets. I have a P10F that is a bit oversized (.3565) and was getting a huge lead mess with both .356" and .357" Hi-Tek coated bullets. Not being all that excited to fool with .358 bullets I tried blues out of desperation, hoping their different coating would make the difference and just  ordered samples of the 125 and 147 RN profiles in .355" because I didn't notice the 'Special Profile' page. Much to my surprise, no leading! However, they had to be loaded really short so next I ordered the 125 RN, 125 TC, and 135 TC in .356". It turns out the 125 TC's gave some minor leading but the 135's were great. I'm still working on accuracy, the 135 TC in .356 were the best but I still have some work to do.

[BryceA]

Sorry, duplicate post.

Edited September 14, 2019 by BryceA
Duplicate post.

[looking4reloadingdeals]

20 hours ago, BryceA said:

 

TL;DR: I've had lots of leading issues and most of the blue bullets, even in .355", are good to go in my most stubborn barrel.

 

Perhaps a bit late here but I had the same question with the blue bullets. I have a P10F that is a bit oversized (.3565) and was getting a huge lead mess with both .356" and .357" Hi-Tek coated bullets. Not being all that excited to fool with .358 bullets I tried blues out of desperation, hoping their different coating would make the difference and just  ordered samples of the 125 and 147 RN profiles in .355" because I didn't notice the 'Special Profile' page. Much to my surprise, no leading! However, they had to be loaded really short so next I ordered the 125 RN, 125 TC, and 135 TC in .356". It turns out the 125 TC's gave some minor leading but the 135's were great. I'm still working on accuracy, the 135 TC in .356 were the best but I still have some work to do.

BryceA, so it sounds like you had leading with the .356", but not the .355? that seems kind of odd to me. It's reassuring to hear that you good luck with Blue Bullets after not having good luck with others. I plan on placing an order for their .356" bullets after I shoot a little more 125gr bullets along with my 147s to see which ones I like the best to place an order. thanks for the input

[looking4reloadingdeals]

On 9/13/2019 at 3:40 PM, Yondering said:

OK last one, this one is just kind of interesting. It's a 125gr 9mm fired in a factory Glock bore, and shows the unique pattern of flats and rounds in the Glock "polygonal" bore.

FWIW this bullet worked perfectly with good accuracy and no leading or smoke. For those who think you can't shoot lead in a Glock barrel - this is what they look like when it's done right, whether it's coated or wax lubed.

 

I hope these pictures are helpful to some of you, and let me know if you want more pics of something in particular.

 

 

 

Yondering, thanks a ton for uploading all of these, its very informative. How do you recover your bullets? I shoot at a private range and am either shooting into a metal backstop that collects the bullets as their shot or at an outdoor range where I don't have the chance to dig through the berms to find bullets because others are waiting to shoot after me. 

[BryceA]

4 hours ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

BryceA, so it sounds like you had leading with the .356", but not the .355? that seems kind of odd to me. It's reassuring to hear that you good luck with Blue Bullets after not having good luck with others. I plan on placing an order for their .356" bullets after I shoot a little more 125gr bullets along with my 147s to see which ones I like the best to place an order. thanks for the input

Technically yes, but it's more complicated and probably not a size issue. The 125 RN didn't lead in both .355" and .356", the 147 RN didn't lead in .355", the 135 TC in .356" didn't lead, but the 125 TC in .356" did lead (although only a tiny bit). Since I didn't try the 125 TC in .355" I can't say that it was the diameter and not the profile + weight that was the issue. I've personally found that bullets with longer shanks are less likely to lead my barrels and of all the blue bullets I've tried the 125 TC have the shortest shank.

 

Speaking of long shanks, the only complaint I have about blue bullets are the RN profiles: the blue bullet RN profiles have to be loaded really short for my pistol, a P10F. The 147 RN has to be short enough to worry me, 1.100" AOL, so much so that I'm probably going to send them out of another gun that will take a longer OAL. The 125 RN have to be loaded to the same length but it doesn't bother me as much. The TC profiles can be loaded quite a bit longer.

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Technically yes, but it's more complicated and probably not a size issue. The 125 RN didn't lead in both .355" and .356", the 147 RN didn't lead in .355", the 135 TC in .356" didn't lead, but the 125 TC in .356" did lead (although only a tiny bit). Since I didn't try the 125 TC in .355" I can't say that it was the diameter and not the profile + weight that was the issue. I've personally found that bullets with longer shanks are less likely to lead my barrels and of all the blue bullets I've tried the 125 TC have the shortest shank.
 
Speaking of long shanks, the only complaint I have about blue bullets are the RN profiles: the blue bullet RN profiles have to be loaded really short for my pistol, a P10F. The 147 RN has to be short enough to worry me, 1.100" AOL, so much so that I'm probably going to send them out of another gun that will take a longer OAL. The 125 RN have to be loaded to the same length but it doesn't bother me as much. The TC profiles can be loaded quite a bit longer.

Interesting, I experienced the exact opposites when I used to use 125 Berry’s plated bullets. I could load the RN to about 1.14, but the TC had to be about 1.10 and that’s why I didn’t use them. Thanks for the info


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[GMP]

1.100" is fine in a CZ as long as it plunks clean and you worked up to your charge correctly.  I've shot many rounds of different brands and profiles at 1.030" in an S2 and P09.  Also Beretta APX that has a long chamber.  All guns feed no problem.   Just be aware of your seating depth and when experimenting with bullets like this back off the charge a few tenths and work back up.  

[looking4reloadingdeals]

Thanks GMP. I use light/minimum loads anyways so I’m not that concerned about that part of it. Always good to keep in mind though.

I was only shooting them in my glocks and I couldn’t get them to run correctly so I gave up for now and put them back on the shelf for now. Might get them back out eventually and give them another shot.


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[Yondering]

On 9/13/2019 at 6:01 PM, OdinIII said:

Yep, thanks for taking the time to post this information. Is it common to try to capture fired bullets to verify that there are no reloading issues? I had not thought of that possibility before.

 

Recovering and examining fired bullets is a good idea and can tell you a lot more about what's going on, but I don't think most shooters do it. Most guys using coated bullets seem to just look for leading in the barrel, while a smaller number seem to at least pay attention to the amount of smoke. If you look back through the pictures I posted, only one of those bullets actually leaded the barrel and even that was just a light layer that did not build up. Imagine how bad the bullet must look if leading actually builds up...

 

I try to keep that in mind when reading comments about how someone's coated bullet "shoots great and doesn't lead".