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Question on Blue Bullets Diameter

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I tried blues in .355 in both the 135tc and 147rd and none of the 4 guns I was using liked them. The accuracy was not very good, I should try them in .356 and see how they work out but for now I’ve been using Acme’s and they are working very well. When it’s time to get more billets I might give them a try again.

That’s my tentative plan unless something better comes up I think, the blue bullets .356”


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4 hours ago, IVC said:

I've seen this argument before and it all makes sense, but then it would mean that the only people shooting .355 Blues would be those with .354 bore. That would seem to be a very small group at best. So, why would Blue Bullets provide .355 as their default size and run .356 as a special order? 

 

I have just recently reloaded some 3K of .355 BB-s and haven't noticed any particular issue. I'm testing them on paper from rest and 25-55 steel plates, some quite small. Am I not being discerning enough, or is it just luck that they seem to work in a bunch of guns (two 929-s, SA 1911, CZ TS, SZ SP-01, Sig P226 X5, etc.)? I would like to revisit and retest accuracy much more systematically if it's likely that I'm using the wrong size... 

the thread moved on since you posted thus the quote.

I can state I do not know the specific reasons for the coated bullet declared sizes.

The bullets could all be .356 as I've never measured them.

 

I have tried a lot different sizes and hardness of my own cast bullets.

fatter bullets seem more consistent for accuracy.

 

this explanation is going to be a bit backwards.

If for some reason I had to get .355 diameter lead bullets to work in a 9mm pistol

I would use pure lead or perhaps with some tin and little antimony

the idea being that softer bullets will deform a little for better sealing to the barrel.

such soft bullets are hard to ship without damage.

 

The reverse, by way of using a very hard bullet alloy,  measured as between .355 and .356 has gotten me lead streaks in the rifling.

I can't say the accuracy was a problem. I do not recall keyholes or clear flyers.

The blue coat may be a very good gas check or such.

 

from my own shooting a barrel that slugged at .355, shooting .357 sized lead bullets,

regardless of how hard, gets accuracy and no noticeable lead streaks.

 

9mm pistols as a type were designed for copper jacketed bullets.

When you start feeding them lead, your problems are fighting leading and the cartridge case.

the case can and WILL swage your bullets if you are not careful.

 

Believe me, I am glad for you that your bullets are performing as you expect.

 

A lot of what kenstone said in a recent post is pretty much the same conclusion I have.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Miranda
fixed a poorly worded sentence

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 "trying to figure out why Blue Bullets are so popular while sized at .355 when most say to get bigger bullets"
 
Bigger BLUE bullets get me better accuracy, something others may not be concerned about and are content shooting 0.355 bullets. 
 
It seems like the answer(s) you're looking for are in the "Need Coated 124's recommendation" thread, where you and I have posted.
I'll repeat what I posted there, here, but know that you will need to do some testing yourself, as all barrels are different.
 
I never experienced leading or slugged a barrel, the reason I load/shoot "over-sized" bullets is for better accuracy/groups, proven thru testing.
I buy 124gr, 0.358" dia. 38/357 RN Blue Bullets, no special dia. order required.
https://www.thebluebullets.com/product-p/1000-147rn-38.htm
I have LEE push thru sizing dies sizes 0.356"/0.357"/0.358" to resize those bullets depending on the gun/barrel.
The "tightest" chambered/shortest throated 9mm barrel I have is a Storm-Lake and I have to use thinner cases to squeeze 0.358 dia bullets in that one, as well as a shorter OAL.
I use a 38S&W expander ($3) in a 9mm powder thru the expander die, a direct swap, so the over-sized bullet is not swaged down by the case while seating.
https://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html
 
You might get lucky by just buying those bullets, seating them, without bullet resizing, into any random case, expanded with a standard expansion plug, not get any bullet swaging, and plunk in every 9mm barrel you have 
If that happens...go out and buy a Lottery ticket.
I don't see that happening though, without some testing of different components/different size bullets.
Only you can decide if all this crap is worth any gains you get, if any.
Sometimes you have to risk it to get the biscuit…

Thanks Kenstone, I was actually just working Myself back through that whole thing this morning, there’s A TON of info in that thread


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OK, this has gone personal. I have hid some of the posts. Any more and the thread closes...

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Thanks Chucks.. Should have never gone in that direction.. 

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I'm sure I've run 60-70K + Blue Bullets in the last few years. I've never ordered the oversized bullets. I've most shot 40, but some 9 and 38 super too. My accuracy standard is a group in the head box at 25 yards. If I can do that I'm happy. I never shoot from bags or a rest or anything like that, I don't see the point. You shouldn't see leading either way if loaded correctly, I'd try some of the standard ones if they work roll with it. If you feel like the accuracy just isn't there try going to the oversize bullets.

 

The gunsmith who chambered my barrels uses a .400 reamer. so in theory my guns will feed better with 400's then 401's. I have shot some 401's that someone gave me, so they still work. Also you should need a little less bell and be less likely to scrape off the coating when you're loading the smaller bullets. That's not really a big deal, you just need to set your press up appropriately.

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Thanks Racinready, that’s a helpful note, that’s a lot of experience with the bullets. I’ll order a sample pack of the regular sized bullets and if they don’t work I’ll work up from there, thanks.


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16 hours ago, Miranda said:

Believe me, I am glad for you that your bullets are performing as you expect.

I'm having second thoughts about "bullets performing as I expected" based on what you wrote. It's possible that I just wasn't paying (enough) attention. Your explanation makes me think about how hard or correctly did I really test it... 

 

For reference, can you post your personal expectation for accuracy of a bullet and how you normally measure it? I would like to replicate it (unless you use ransom rest or some other special gear) so I can compare apples to apples. 

 

Interesting thread... 

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I usually test by shooting at 10 yards.

and my two hand hold...

 

I have a lot of fun deciding which were shots that I called...

those are my accuracy group.

 

my targets are 1 foot squares and I doubt the slow fire shots are more than 6 inches across

you end up taking my word for that as I can't think what would be proof.

when I get shots not within an inch of my known aim point...

I start thinking something is not right...

it is not too hard to trust your eyes. when you know where the pistol was aimed when you broke the shot,

then see the bullet print is waaaay off the mark, you know you did your part.

I've heard claims of accuracy from a pistol that I've never been close to repeating/hitting.

so I shot a bunch of commercial124 HP and that was my floor.

the .356 bullets I made are similar and once I got the press and dies to quit swaging the .357

I got better than the floor.  noticable and not as good as claims I have heard.

 

It was the lead streaks in the barrel that got me to making .357 bullets. the accuracy pretty much made it my standard.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

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I usually test by shooting at 10 yards.
and my two hand hold...
 
I have a lot of fun deciding which were shots that I called...
those are my accuracy group.
 
my targets are 1 foot squares and I doubt the slow fire shots are more than 6 inches across
you end up taking my word for that as I can't think what would be proof.
when I get shots not within an inch of my known aim point...
I start thinking something is not right...
it is not too hard to trust your eyes. when you know where the pistol was aimed when you broke the shot,
then see the bullet print is waaaay off the mark, you know you did your part.
I've heard claims of accuracy from a pistol that I've never been close to repeating/hitting.
so I shot a bunch of commercial124 HP and that was my floor.
the .356 bullets I made are similar and once I got the press and dies to quit swaging the .357
I got better than the floor.  noticable and not as good as claims I have heard.
 
It was the lead streaks in the barrel that got me to making .357 bullets. the accuracy pretty much made it my standard.
 
miranda
 
 
 
 
 

Miranda, when you say lead streaks in the barre do you mean that you had leading after shooting, or just that with the .357” bullet you knew the lead was deforming into the grooves more so than other bullets?


Also, your accuracy testing is very similar to what I use. I know what my loads are capable of during a slow fire session and what I should be able to expect from them after shooting a a couple thousand of that load or so. Not very scientific, but it also works for me. I also noticed a large jump in accuracy when I switched from Berry’s .356 plated bullets to .357” coated bullets. I was pleasantly surprised to say the day the least when I was shooting out center of the target at 7 yards instead of them landing close to each other, but still all having their own hole instead of making one large hole.


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You are doing great by my standards!

 

if I start with a clean barrel and shot my 356 home made cast bullets sized to 356...

after about 3 or 4 magazines I have lead streaks in the triangle of the rifle lands.  it usually

fills more as I keep shooting and accuracy suffers.

 

the berry's plated didn't leave lead in the barrel but I did not think me or my pistol liked the overall performance.

so far commercial jacketed hp 124 grain are about as accurate as I can get.

my lead cast bullets sized at .357 from a lee 125 type mold are a little better and they do not leave lead in the rifling.

 

for me it works because I have a lot of cheap ammo and I get similar results as fairly expensive bullets.

... ah the hollow points from Montana gold are pretty...

 

I think the commercial ammo I decided I liked was winchester 124 grain hollow points

when I did my part, they did also.

 

miranda

 

'

 

 

 

Edited by Miranda
danged typo...

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one more thing...

I mentioned two web sites

castboolits.com

and

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

 

cast boolits is a wide ranging forum...  I don't think I've posted there.

 

the cast bullets notes page is accurate in all it says that I could directly test.

as such I use it as a reference.

I do not hunt with a rifle and I target hunt with a 17hmr so the rifle stuff the site mentions are not in my trials.

 

most people do not want to make bullets so read it it as a way to check what others have said.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

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On 9/9/2019 at 6:57 AM, Miranda said:

telling someone they are 'being that way' does not mean you are free of being that way.

 

to a great extent what others are doing makes little difference to what you should do with your ammo.

your pistol may be exceptional.  what most others buy and use will not help you.

 

again, you asked why 355 blue bullets are popular.

as the obvious answer is; I know they will not work for me.

that answer will lead to another question, which is the answer you got from two different people.

 

fit your bullets to your pistol.

victor

Way back in an earlier post in this thread you wrote:

"I have not used coated bullets"

 

Coated bullets have a varying thickness of coating depending on the Mfg. and no one posting here has mentioned the thickness  of the coating on Blue Bullets as yet.

I would consider that thickness an important part of this "bullet diameter" discussion as the coating is way softer and easier deformed than the underlying lead.

 

For discussion lets assume the coating to be 0.001" thick, so a coated/sized 0.355" bullet would have a lead dia. of 0.353, so the coating could be smearing rather than engaging the rifling, and the underlying lead, whether "soft or hard", could be "leading" the barrel...in theory.

 

With that in mind, I have a hard time understanding what your posts about your experience with un-coated/traditionally lubed lead bullets in different diameters relates to coated bullets.

So yeh, fit your bullets to your pistol.

jmo,

😐

 

 

Edited by Kenstone

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23 minutes ago, Kenstone said:

 

For discussion lets assume the coating to be 0.001" thick, so a coated/sized 0.355" bullet would have a lead dia. of 0.353, so the coating could be smearing rather than engaging the rifling, and the underlying lead, whether "soft or hard", could be "leading" the barrel...in theory.

 

 

That's not how that works. The rifling is a lot deeper than that, so the thin layer of coating makes no difference in how well the rifling grips the bullet. It might help you to look at some recovered coated bullets that show good rifling marks. 

 

I've had some trouble following Miranda's comments, he seems to be all over the place, but he is right that lubed cast bullet practices apply to coated bullets as well. All we've done with coated bullets is substitute a polymer coating for the wax lube; the coating makes the bullets more tolerant of a wider range of variables, but good practices for shooting cast bullets still applies. Some of you guys seem to think you can treat a coated bullet the same as a jacketed bullet, and that's just not true. 

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Coating bullets (whether moly or powder coat) tends to reduce leading,  as does keeping velocity below (depending on un-coated lead hardness) around 1100 fps. I prefer 1050 or so, but, that's just me. Coating also reduces smoke which is the lube burning off...

But you may already know that.

My S&W 929 likes .358 dia. bullets. Found through much testing and trial. My 9mm autos tend to like .356 dia. best but will shoot .358 dia. as well. (All coated bullets, jacketed are a different animal)

I shoot .358 dia. Blue Bullets in my 929. 147 gr, shoot the most accurate of any of the companies I have tried, except Bayou Bullets. Same diameter in 135 gr.

 I have my bullet guy size all of my bullet weights (96 gr, 135 gr, 125 gr, or 155 gr) to .3575 dia. because that's what his worn out sizing die happens to make. They work great.

No leading, no smoke, great accuracy, etc.

I wonder if some experimentation might be your best friend?

You can order samples of most of the big companies 100 or so at a time. Try different diameters, weights, etc. Testing is a necessary part of the equation, but, also part of the fun!

 

Good luck in your search...

 

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4 hours ago, Yondering said:

 

That's not how that works. The rifling is a lot deeper than that, so the thin layer of coating makes no difference in how well the rifling grips the bullet. It might help you to look at some recovered coated bullets that show good rifling marks. 

 

I've had some trouble following Miranda's comments, he seems to be all over the place, but he is right that lubed cast bullet practices apply to coated bullets as well. All we've done with coated bullets is substitute a polymer coating for the wax lube; the coating makes the bullets more tolerant of a wider range of variables, but good practices for shooting cast bullets still applies. Some of you guys seem to think you can treat a coated bullet the same as a jacketed bullet, and that's just not true. 

"That's not how that works. The rifling is a lot deeper than that"
I know how deep rifling is, we're talking under size bullets (the lead part/not the coating) in oversized barrels here (mostly 9mm CZ/other Euro guns).

Just like the common belief that jacketed bullets can be of a smaller diameter because the jacket hardness is greater than a cast (or coated cast) bullets.

 

"It might help you to look at some recovered coated bullets that show good rifling marks"

I have looked at many recovered coated bullets, but none fired from guns the owner's have experienced leading or bullet tumbling/key holing, something that would confirm or refute what I have posted here.

Leading/key holing of coated bullets is something I've read lot about lately, here and many other places.

How could a coated bullet lead a barrel unless the coating was not smeared/shaved off by skidding/not spinning down a barrel?

How does the lead migrate thru the coating and end up on the barrel if the bullet was spinning/following the rifling twist?

 
"All we've done with coated bullets is substitute a polymer coating for the wax lube"

There's no wax lube on the OD of a cast bullet, it's in the lube grooves.

Wax melts at a much lower temp than a Hi-Tek type coating...or the core lead.

We have all seen the lead melted out of a Hi-Tek coated bullet, leaving just a shell of coating.

 

"Some of you guys seem to think you can treat a coated bullet the same as a jacketed bullet"
Never said anything about that...
 
The presence of a coating on a cast bullet dictates the diameter of the underlying lead will be the sized dia. minus the coating thickness x2, unless you believe sizing reduces the thickness of the coating (I don't).
A simple cross-section will show this and there are many of images of this online.
CoaterXSectioned.jpg.a64a9cd39021a723e0a482a360b9a95d.jpg
 

The people at Castboolits seem to be ahead of the rest in regards to this and been recommending larger diameter coated bullets to remedy this leading/key holing, and have had good success going this way.

There's even a guy over there that has a business re-chambering/re-throating barrels to work with larger/coated bullets.

 

I am aware that larger diameter wax lubed/cast bullets can also minimize leading/key holing too.

Although the same fix, I believe the way it works are different.

jmo,

😐

 

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4 hours ago, Kenstone said:
How could a coated bullet lead a barrel unless the coating was not smeared/shaved off by skidding/not spinning down a barrel?

 

 

Because most leading is caused by gas cutting, not by bullets skidding in the rifling. Gas cutting is caused by a poor seal of the bullet in the barrel, which is what we get with undersized bullets. Remember we're talking about a range of up to 40,000 psi or more, just for common pistol rounds - it doesn't take much for that seal to fail. The wax lube on a traditional cast bullet is a big part of that seal as well.

 

There are a number of things in your post above that are partially or not quite right, too many to point out one by one. I take that to mean you're just starting to learn about this stuff, which is fine, but don't assume the rest of us are at the same point. I've cast and coated well over 1,000 lb of lead in the last 6 years alone, (6 years ago was when I developed the "shake and bake" powder coating process many of us use now) and was active on castboolits for a long time. I'm not saying that as a "my dick is bigger than yours" kind of thing, but to point out that you're "preaching to the choir" so to speak. I'm here to help but not to argue about the basics of how this stuff works. I do suggest reading lots on castboolits, there is some good info there if you weed through the bs, and there's a lot to be learned about this stuff.

 

I'll try to post some pics of recovered bullets in the next day or two. 

Edited by Yondering

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1 hour ago, Yondering said:

 

Because most leading is caused by gas cutting, not by bullets skidding in the rifling. Gas cutting is caused by a poor seal of the bullet in the barrel, which is what we get with undersized bullets. Remember we're talking about a range of up to 40,000 psi or more, just for common pistol rounds - it doesn't take much for that seal to fail. The wax lube on a traditional cast bullet is a big part of that seal as well.

 

There are a number of things in your post above that are partially or not quite right, too many to point out one by one. I take that to mean you're just starting to learn about this stuff, which is fine, but don't assume the rest of us are at the same point. I've cast and coated well over 1,000 lb of lead in the last 6 years alone, (6 years ago was when I developed the "shake and bake" powder coating process many of us use now) and was active on castboolits for a long time. I'm not saying that as a "my dick is bigger than yours" kind of thing, but to point out that you're "preaching to the choir" so to speak. I'm not here to help but not to argue about the basics of how this stuff works. I do suggest reading lots on castboolits, there is some good info there if you weed through the bs, and there's a lot to be learned about this stuff.

 

I'll try to post some pics of recovered bullets in the next day or two. 

Thanks for reading/quoting my post

Wow OK

I understand how you would feel that way.

I posted what I believe, point by point, rather than a blanket statement like: "too many to point out one by one" or assuming "you're just starting to learn about this stuff".

 

You don't know me or my experience, and I don't see the need to mention it here, except to say I'm not "just starting out" as you have assumed.

I stand by what I have posted to be my experience, and see no need for any further any back and forth with you on this or any other subject.

I do have a question though,

Are you Piglet, TES or White Eagle in this thread over on Castboolits:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?386884-so-who-gets-the-credit

just curious,

😐

Edited by Kenstone

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OK Kenstone. I didn't post that to offend you, sorry you took it that way. 

 

If you don't even know basic stuff like what causes leading though, I don't think you have any right to act offended when someone assumes you're just getting started with cast bullets and coating. Your theories you've presented about how lead bullets work are not correct, and indicate a lack of experience with this stuff.

 

Never mind on the pictures, looks like there's not much point. 

Edited by Yondering

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Yondering, I would be interested in pictures if you posted them. I have recovered a bullet or two that I didn’t end up saving. I would be interested in your analysis of them.


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8 hours ago, Kenstone said:

Way back in an earlier post in this thread you wrote:

"I have not used coated bullets"

 

Coated bullets have a varying thickness of coating depending on the Mfg. and no one posting here has mentioned the thickness  of the coating on Blue Bullets as yet.

I would consider that thickness an important part of this "bullet diameter" discussion as the coating is way softer and easier deformed than the underlying lead.

 

For discussion lets assume the coating to be 0.001" thick, so a coated/sized 0.355" bullet would have a lead dia. of 0.353, so the coating could be smearing rather than engaging the rifling, and the underlying lead, whether "soft or hard", could be "leading" the barrel...in theory.

 

With that in mind, I have a hard time understanding what your posts about your experience with un-coated/traditionally lubed lead bullets in different diameters relates to coated bullets.

So yeh, fit your bullets to your pistol.

jmo,

😐

 

 

 

the thread has moved a bit since this post, thus the quote.

 

hi kenstone,

you get both answers...

I want cheap ammo. buying blue bullets is not  my idea of cheap.

I found a few hundred pounds of wheel weights ... cheap...

 

second answer is a little more involved and sorta involves the first answer.

I made bullets per Lee Precision instructions...

that left something to be desired.

I went looking for advice on how to cast bullets. 

found castboolits and rotometals and the LA silhouette club.

As a way to learn about a subject, a forum also leaves something to be desired.

to skip a lot of details that happened here

I'll go with I tested what I read.  then compared my notes with the various people's posts

what I got was a sense of how the ones who knew what to do said or wrote things.

I call it learning to read...

 

pretty much all  said coating a lead bullet reduces smoke.

they also agreed that what worked for your gun in terms of diameter and hardness

seemed to stay as required to prevent leading.

 

I am not big on re-inventing the wheel.  I trusted them and I left the powder-coating aside as un-needed expense.

I did have a lot of fun smoking magic wax lubes... I had the ingredients... acquired cheap.

 

all that said...

let me point out that no one has said anything about the dimensions of blue bullets except your re-sizing them.

and my advice was try the .356 size and see if they are good.

 

The blue bullets coating could be very very thick and the lead core has no chance of being cut by the rifle lands.

buuut my advice would still be the same.

the copper jacketed bullets I have measured and that seemed accurate were never smaller than .355 and some were close to .356

so I would say the average of the few I checked to be .3555 inches.  this was a dial caliper and my mark 1 eyeball and thumb.

my digital caliper said 355 a lot and a few 356... so I tried another gauge.

 

I do not KNOW what causes inaccuracy... I do KNOW what dimensions get me accuracy.

Important to note is that the second part is absolutely not a comment on the first part.

 

My ammo problems with lead were bullets falling out of the cases after I shifted to 357.

once I had got the 38 expander working in the press I've had no real problems with the ammo.

 

again, the other reason for saying try the 356 size is that 9mm dies will build good ammo.

fat bottomed bullets need bigger expanders.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Yondering said:

OK Kenstone. I didn't post that to offend you, sorry you took it that way. 

 

If you don't even know basic stuff like what causes leading though, I don't think you have any right to act offended when someone assumes you're just getting started with cast bullets and coating. Your theories you've presented about how lead bullets work are not correct, and indicate a lack of experience with this stuff.

 

Never mind on the pictures, looks like there's not much point. 

Hi Yondering,

quote because the thread bumped along a bit....

 

I also would like your photos because seeing the results( a photo) with an explanation is often far better than

an explanation alone.

 

... I have read many explanations.

 

miranda

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10 hours ago, Yondering said:

 

 

I've had some trouble following Miranda's comments, he seems to be all over the place, but he is right that lubed cast bullet practices apply to coated bullets as well.

 

 

!!!! all over the place!  

 

sadly for me, you are not the first to accuse me a writing in that arcane language "Obscuranto."

 

but who has written about lead bullets in leading magazines?

none the less, I'll take the ...erm... criticism to heart and attempt to add clarity on future writing.

and thanks for the 'but he is right etc..." that helped ease the pain. 😁

 

miranda

 

Edited by Miranda
typos

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3 minutes ago, Miranda said:

 

!!!! all over the place!  

 

sadly for me, you are not the first to accuse me a writing in that arcane language "Obscuranto."

 

but who has written about lead bullets in leading magazines?

none the less, I'll take the ...erm... criticism to heart and attempt to add clarity on future writing.

and thanks for the 'but he is right etc..." that helped ease the pain. 😁

 

miranda

 

 

😁

I don't mean to imply that you're wrong about something, just that I had trouble following your train of thought in the posts.

 

I'll see if I can get some pictures posted since a couple of you are interested. 

 

BTW on coating your own (I used wax lube for years too), it can be about the same cost as lube, and a lot faster if you coat them my way. I generally coat 300-600 9mm bullets at a time, that's only a couple minutes work and then sizing if you want to; I was never able to lube my bullets that fast or in the kind of volume I need. That was my main reason for switching, along with the reduced inhalation of lead dust/smoke, which was proven by my lead blood tests before and after. A number of us used to use the acetone method of coating, but that was slow; the dry tumble "shake and bake" method is much faster and easier now. 

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2 hours ago, Yondering said:

OK Kenstone. I didn't post that to offend you, sorry you took it that way. 

 

If you don't even know basic stuff like what causes leading though, I don't think you have any right to act offended when someone assumes you're just getting started with cast bullets and coating. Your theories you've presented about how lead bullets work are not correct, and indicate a lack of experience with this stuff.

 

Never mind on the pictures, looks like there's not much point. 

No offense taken.

I enjoy how you lump everything together with your "If you don't even know basic stuff like what causes leading though" type statements... as a way to not answer explain anything you proclaim as the absolute definitive explanation.

 

I did NOT post any theories about how lead bullets work, only theories and experiences with coated bullets...

 

I do know that wax lube does not seal the barrel as you stated above, but I let that slide, as well as any discussion about obturation as it relates to leading/sealing/(lead) bullet hardness.

You (and Miranda) tend to lump cast/waxed lubed and coated bullets together as both having the same traits/requirements for successful loading, I do not think that at all.

I know anything I mention will fall on deaf ears and your only rebut will be about me and my lack of experience, not coated bullets, the subject of this thread.

 

No need to respond here in your typical condescending manner as I'm about to move on from here (and you) as the discussion seems to going into the cast bullet/wax lubed bullet direction.

Take the last word if you feel the need to, but know I won't be reading it.

😀

Edited by Kenstone

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