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broadside72

Retreats in a stage

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The problem with not being close as the RO during a retreat is if there is a malfunction or other reason the stage needs to be scored as shot its not possible if you aren't capturing the shots correctly

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I shot a match last week that had a full retreat stage, I mean you started all the way on back fault line. I like trying to figure a way to get to front take longer shots or move down range. Everyone on my squad shot it fine with several different ways to shoot it. I’ve no problem with them. 

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17 hours ago, broadside72 said:

The problem with not being close as the RO during a retreat is if there is a malfunction or other reason the stage needs to be scored as shot its not possible if you aren't capturing the shots correctly

How often do you see that happening?

Then you just need to give the competitor a reshoot.

-------------------------------

(My previous posts here are all about stages where the retreat is forced by stage design. Surprise movements are different matter altogether.)

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4 hours ago, perttime said:

How often do you see that happening?

Then you just need to give the competitor a reshoot.

 

If I could just have that stage back that I zeroed due to a malfunction . . . . 

 

Agreed it is not frequent, and perfection is unattainable, but it can make a huge impact on the shooters results.  

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Nothing wrong with running up range, but know your audience and be ready to react quickly.

 

When a stage calls for movement up range, I would normally ask the shooter how he plans to shoot so that I can stay out of his way. However, the tricky ones are when a new(ish) shooter decides he forgot something along the way running down range and suddenly decides to reverse and run up range. I just had to DQ a guy for not only doing this, but pointing the gun in the air and turning around thinking that wouldn't count as a 180 violation. 

 

It's so nice to RO people who know what they are doing...

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As an RO you aren't supposed to ask that and as a shooter you have no obligation to answer or follow through if you do answer.

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20 minutes ago, IVC said:

When a stage calls for movement up range, I would normally ask the shooter how he plans to shoot so that I can stay out of his way.

 

Yea...don't do that. 

Especially as I'm coming to the line to shoot, or making ready. 

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13 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

Yea...don't do that. 

Especially as I'm coming to the line to shoot, or making ready. 

I'll only ask if it's a real RO trap, or a timer trap for PCC. I certainly don't care if the RO asks me which way I plan to go, and I also don't care if someone minds if the RO asks them something. In general, I think it's the RO's job to be ready for most anything, but that doesn't mean either RO's or shooters have to be dicks about it, or let it get in their head and freak them out. I appreciate when someone lets me know they're going to do something a little differently than most other shooters.

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12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 I also don't care if someone minds if the RO asks them something. In general, I think it's the RO's job to be ready for most anything, but that doesn't mean either RO's or shooters have to be dicks about it, or let it get in their head and freak them out.

 

"I also don't care if someone minds if the RO asks them something."

 

How very non-dickish of you. 

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1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

As an RO you aren't supposed to ask that and as a shooter you have no obligation to answer or follow through if you do answer.

 

I'm not sure why you would phrase it as "not supposed to" - there is no rule against communication before the COF, it's not coaching and it doesn't provide any competitive advantage or anything that would be in any way considered outside the WSB. 

 

Of course, you don't have to answer. You don't even have to answer who you are if the RO asks. You can take 15 minutes fidgeting at the Make Ready. There are many things that you can do based on not being prohibited and there are things that ROs can do too. 

 

Now, when running up range you can also run into the RO while having a great run and getting a mandatory reshoot, or getting a DQ if the contact causes an action described in 10.3. Even without contact, you can sweep the RO if you as a shooter just ran past him up range - was it you or him in 10.5.5? There are other violations that can happen during RO contact and send you home. Remember, an RO cannot jump out of your way if you run straight into him and there is no way the RO is required to read your mind or figure out where you're going to go. 

 

Being a dick goes both ways... 

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2 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

Yea...don't do that. 

Especially as I'm coming to the line to shoot, or making ready. 

 

The COF begins at Make Ready and at that time the communication is indeed very formal and well-defined. The safety communication, which this is, happens before the COF and before Make Ready. 

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Area-1 last year in Montana had several stages that required uprange movement.  I don't recall the DQ rate being any higher than other Area matches.

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I'm not sure why you would phrase it as "not supposed to" - there is no rule against communication before the COF, it's not coaching and it doesn't provide any competitive advantage or anything that would be in any way considered outside the WSB. 
 
Of course, you don't have to answer. You don't even have to answer who you are if the RO asks. You can take 15 minutes fidgeting at the Make Ready. There are many things that you can do based on not being prohibited and there are things that ROs can do too. 
 
Now, when running up range you can also run into the RO while having a great run and getting a mandatory reshoot, or getting a DQ if the contact causes an action described in 10.3. Even without contact, you can sweep the RO if you as a shooter just ran past him up range - was it you or him in 10.5.5? There are other violations that can happen during RO contact and send you home. Remember, an RO cannot jump out of your way if you run straight into him and there is no way the RO is required to read your mind or figure out where you're going to go. 
 
Being a dick goes both ways... 


I say not supposed to because of several things. An RO's response or how they ask the question could be seen as coaching. The shooter's response could purposely be incorrect to force contact with the RO but they "changed their mind at the last minute".

There might not be a specific rule for it, but when Troy gave my RO class he said to not do it for reasons similar to above.

The RO has a job to do. Maybe s\he should just stick to that. I've RO'd noobs and GM's and only once did I have contact with a shooter (incidental contact after the last shot). I've never asked a shooter, that wasn't in my new shooter class, the direction they were going.

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2 hours ago, broadside72 said:

The RO has a job to do. Maybe s\he should just stick to that. I've RO'd noobs and GM's and only once did I have contact with a shooter (incidental contact after the last shot). I've never asked a shooter, that wasn't in my new shooter class, the direction they were going.

 

 

You're not wrong, but in the modern world, with people shooting rifles (some of them quiet ones) at pistol matches, it may sometimes be nice to have an idea of what's going to happen. Of course the shooter is always welcome to change his mind mid-stream, but there are some stages where it's just not reasonable or safe to try to pick up every shot with the timer, but I want to make damn sure I pick up the last several shots, and as many others as I can (in case of a stage-ending malfunction). As a shooter, I want to make sure my time gets correctly recorded, and I don't mind a little communication to assist in that goal. As an RO, I want to make sure every shooter's time gets recorded and I don't mind a little communication to assist in that goal.

 

It's not really an issue on most stages, but some stages end up being pretty constraining.

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I had to RO a stage at a major where it was a circle. No way I was going to follow the shooters up front regardless of wanting to pick up shots. Depending on which way the shooter ran, it was obvious which would be the last position. On the few shooters that missed a target I kept my distance while making sure the timer picked up the last shots. It's not hard to deal with when you don't over think it. Use common sense when the situation conflicts with rules or guidance. 

 

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17 hours ago, broadside72 said:

There might not be a specific rule for it, but when Troy gave my RO class he said to not do it for reasons similar to above.

In my class we talked about questions such as "do you understand the course of fire" and how silly it is because the shooter can answer "no." However, asking about how to ensure a safe COF and also making sure you can pick up the last shot safely is a completely different beast.

 

On a standard course with an Open shooter I don't talk at all beyond basic commands. However, if there is a PCC shooter and the expected last position is awkward, I would tell them that I'll be close at the end to pick up the last shot. It gives him the opportunity to tell me if he intends to do something unusual, so I can be out of the way. There is no point in trying to be close to pick up the shot if the shooters know that they will do something unusual and run into me.

 

The same goes for moving up range - if there is only one natural path from starting position to the last position (or even having two nearby different possible last positions), there isn't much to talk about. I have to stay clear and give the shooter enough space to move as fast as he desires. If I can stay out of the way during the up range movement without talking to the shooter, that's not a problem either. The problem is on some very specific stages, when there are different legitimate ways to move and different possible last positions. In such a case, I need to get close enough at the end, but still stay out of the way until the very end. A quick confirmation about where the shooter is going to finish allows me both to keep an eye on him and to stay out of his way. I'm not asking about strategy or order of shots...

Edited by IVC
grammar/spelling/typos

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On 9/2/2019 at 2:15 PM, broadside72 said:

Some folks balk at having to retreat for portions of a stage. Are they really that bad?

 

Sorry for my thread drift above, back to OP... 

 

There is nothing wrong with having to retreat and those stages should be routine. It's like having narrow positions and forcing PCC guys to work a bit, or having stages where one has to navigate around barrels and watch the muzzle. Running up range is just one of the standard course skills. It's certainly not a trap or something that is borderline acceptable. 

 

 

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Uprange movement is a good thing to have in the toolbox as a shooter. We did a stage starting downrange and you had to basically walk backward through the entire stage to do it efficiently.

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I don’t mind retreat stages...it’s the retreat stages on the bays with the biggest rocks sticking out of the ground that makes things really interesting. 😎

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Ouch.

Match organizers should probably give some thought to putting retreat stages in bays that have somewhat secure footing.

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6 hours ago, perttime said:

Ouch.

Match organizers should probably give some thought to putting retreat stages in bays that have somewhat secure footing.

 

If the footing is bad going in one direction I think it will be bad going in every direction.

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On 9/9/2019 at 3:21 PM, Ssanders224 said:

 

Yea...don't do that. 

Especially as I'm coming to the line to shoot, or making ready. 

 

Oh geez, heaven forbid that the RO tries to stay out of your way while you shoot 🙄

 

Honestly, have you worked any majors or ran a squad at a club match? Having an idea of where to be as an RO on oddball stages is usually a good thing for everyone. I stay out of your way, and you don’t potentially run over an RO or get DQ’ed. 

 

9/10 times, the RO will know where you’re going based off what direction you’re looking. It’s the 1/10 that gets tricky. 

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On 9/5/2019 at 2:17 PM, broadside72 said:

The problem with not being close as the RO during a retreat is if there is a malfunction or other reason the stage needs to be scored as shot its not possible if you aren't capturing the shots correctly

 

Yeah, but sometimes things happen. I’m all for competitive equality, but sometimes reshoots happen. 

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45 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Oh geez, heaven forbid that the RO tries to stay out of your way while you shoot 🙄

 

Honestly, have you worked any majors or ran a squad at a club match? Having an idea of where to be as an RO on oddball stages is usually a good thing for everyone. I stay out of your way, and you don’t potentially run over an RO or get DQ’ed. 

 

9/10 times, the RO will know where you’re going based off what direction you’re looking. It’s the 1/10 that gets tricky. 

 

I’ve RO’d plenty. 

 

Out of quite a few years of shooting majors, I can count on one hand the number of times that ROs have said things to me outside of standard commands during make ready/right before (not counting the times I made remarks or solicited them). GOOD ROs don’t need to query the shooter 99.9% of the time, even if a retreat is possibility. 

 

If I’m planning on doing something completely out of left field, that may put the RO in a compromised position, or catch them off guard, I make them aware.  

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15 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

I’ve RO’d plenty. 

 

Out of quite a few years of shooting majors, I can count on one hand the number of times that ROs have said things to me outside of standard commands during make ready/right before (not counting the times I made remarks or solicited them). GOOD ROs don’t need to query the shooter 99.9% of the time, even if a retreat is possibility. 

 

If I’m planning on doing something completely out of left field, that may put the RO in a compromised position, or catch them off guard, I make them aware.  

 

I guess there are just a lot better RO’s in your area than mine. I’ve had plenty of ROs ask what direction I plan to go, which way I’m going to turn, etc. and it never has phased me. I very very rarely say anything other than the correct range commands, but if I do and it completely wrecks a shooter’s stage plan, they have other issues. 

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