Smoking like a diesel going up hill in the morning

[Yondering]

On 8/30/2019 at 5:49 PM, Bench said:

I haven't slugged the barrel yet but there shouldn't be an issue with this stock barrel and .356" bullets.

 

 

Honestly, if you haven't slugged the bore AND the throat, you can't be sure of that. It's entirely possible for your stock barrel to have a .356" bore or even .357", and the throat may be even bigger.

 

Trying some .358" bullets in that would be my first step, if it was me.

Second step would be to lose the crimp, only apply enough to remove the case mouth flare. Your crimp may be scraping bullet coating.

You didn't say, but if you're using a Lee FCD to apply that crimp, stop doing that; it makes some of your bullets smaller diameter, in the cases with thicker walls. 

 

I'd pull some bullets from loaded rounds and measure them. It's likely at least some of them are ending up smaller than .356" before you fire them, especially if you're using mixed brass. 

 

The recommendation to use a different powder is worth considering too; I see more smoke with Titegroup as well. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Yondering

[Joe4d]

Hp 38 should be fine ,
Agree with above, pull a couple loaded rounds, measure them and see if you see anything amiss.
While TG does smoke, I dont see how it would be the cause of the leading unless the coating was getting damaged.
Could also be a bad batch of bullets and the coating didnt cure correctly.
Guess all you can do is change one thing at a time and see when the problem stops. Do you have another 9mm you could try the same loads in ?

[Bench]

5 hours ago, Yondering said:

 

Honestly, if you haven't slugged the bore AND the throat, you can't be sure of that. It's entirely possible for your stock barrel to have a .356" bore or even .357", and the throat may be even bigger.

 Your crimp may be scraping bullet coating.

You didn't say, but if you're using a Lee FCD to apply that crimp, stop doing that;

 

I'd pull some bullets from loaded rounds and measure them. It's likely at least some of them are ending up smaller than .356" before you fire them, especially if you're using mixed brass. 

 

The recommendation to use a different powder is worth considering too; I see more smoke with Titegroup as well. 

New powder is the first stop for today then just for drill I"ll see what the slugging results are. I'm using a Dillon SDB and Dillon dies so I"m assuming that all should be fine for the crimp at .378"...but pulling a few rounds should tell. Thanks.

[Bench]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

Hp 38 should be fine ,
Agree with above, pull a couple loaded rounds, measure them and see if you see anything amiss.
While TG does smoke, I dont see how it would be the cause of the leading unless the coating was getting damaged.
Could also be a bad batch of bullets and the coating didnt cure correctly.
Guess all you can do is change one thing at a time and see when the problem stops. Do you have another 9mm you could try the same loads in ?

I'm going to have to work up the load for this gun as my other 9mm won't accept this load. Slugging then pulling bullets is going to be my next step after seeing how the new powder works today. Thanks.

[AHI]

You know most of the post are repeating what I said in the third post of this.

Look at your seating and how you remove the flair and as said if using a Lee

factory crimp die stop . Mesure your pulled bullet diameter with a micrometer

not a 99 cent harbor freight caliper. 

[ExStreetWalker]

You might need to get the leade cut in the barrel to stop the leading.

 

Most manufacturers aren't cutting 9mm barrels and leade to SAMMI spec. 

 

There's a guy over at cast boolits named DougGuy that can throat the chamber.  I had to do that to my Canik SFX.  There was no throat and the rifling was shaving the bullets.

 

Once I had him throat the chamber all the problems went away. 

[Bench]

9 hours ago, AHI said:

You know most of the post are repeating what I said in the third post of this.

Look at your seating and how you remove the flair and as said if using a Lee

factory crimp die stop . Mesure your pulled bullet diameter with a micrometer

not a 99 cent harbor freight caliper. 

Not an issue with the Lee crimp die, using Dillon dies that came with the SDB. Will check pulled bullets this pm and check for leading from the match today.

[Bench]

3 hours ago, ExStreetWalker said:

You might need to get the leade cut in the barrel to stop the leading.

Already taken care of a while back. Thanks.

[Bench]

Update:

HP-38 doesn't smoke as bad as Titegroup but there remains an issue with leading though certainly not as significant as with Titegroup after ~150 rounds at the match today.

SO...the next issue to look at will be the crimp through pulled bullets to check for excessive crimp and scraped coating.

 

More later!!!

[zzt]

Thoroughly clean your bore and make sure all the lead is out.  Then lube with Weapon Shield CLP.  Next time, clean with Weapon Shield Solvent, dry and lube with the CLP.  Your leading problems will vanish.  Switch to a cooler burning powder.

[Bench]

29 minutes ago, zzt said:

Thoroughly clean your bore and make sure all the lead is out.  Then lube with Weapon Shield CLP.  Next time, clean with Weapon Shield Solvent, dry and lube with the CLP.  Your leading problems will vanish.  Switch to a cooler burning powder.

Thanks for the CLP and solvent name...already switched to HP_38. Less smoke and less leading. Checking today for bullet swedging, crimp, and coating shaving. 

[BigMoneyGrip]

I shot 1000's of Summers HiTech with Titegroup. I never had a problem with leading, but it did smoke a lot. I switched to BE-86 and the smoke is gone. 

[The Donald]

Out of coated bullets, Blue Bullets with Titegroup does not smoke very much. Other coated bullets smoke pretty bad with Titegroup.

 

I have a couple thousand other coated 9mm bullets so I changed my powder from Titegroup to Sport Pistol. Sport Pistol in my 40's with Blue Bullets is very clean, even the brass looks like it was just tumbled!

[Postal Bob]

I use Ibejiheads coated bullets with titegroup, and have very little smoke, and no leading at all. So, either your bullets coating is no good, or you have a loose barrel and need use a larger diameter bullet.

[Bench]

3 hours ago, Postal Bob said:

I use Ibejiheads coated bullets with titegroup, and have very little smoke, and no leading at all. So, either your bullets coating is no good, or you have a loose barrel and need use a larger diameter bullet.

Others that I have talked to have no issues with Gallant bullets so this afternoon the barrel gets slugged after I check for scalping and dia on some pulled bullets.

[Bench]

On 9/1/2019 at 12:34 AM, Yondering said:

 

Honestly, if you haven't slugged the bore AND the throat, you can't be sure of that. It's entirely possible for your stock barrel to have a .356" bore or even .357", and the throat may be even bigger.

 

Second step would be to lose the crimp, only apply enough to remove the case mouth flare. Your crimp may be scraping bullet coating.

 

I'd pull some bullets from loaded rounds and measure them. It's likely at least some of them are ending up smaller than .356" before you fire them, especially if you're using mixed brass.

I slugged the barrel and it came out to .356" so that would indicate that I should be loading .357" bullets(??).

 

I pulled 10 random bullets and crimps measured .378" to .379". There was no coating scalping but a very faint ring that was easier to feel with fingernail than to see by eye. I understand about loosening the crimp but how much farther can one go and still avoid set back?

 

Bullets measure .356"(+) prior to loading and the pulled bullets (mixed brass) measure .356" on the mark. None measured less than .356"

 

 

[4n2t0]

Your crimp is fine at .378ish with no severe crimp ring.

 

Leading is almost always caused by undersized bullets, try a larger bullet diameter and the leading issue should disappear.

 

P.S. Sizing stops setback, not the crimp.

Edited September 3, 2019 by 4n2t0

[Bench]

32 minutes ago, 4n2t0 said:

Your crimp is fine at .378ish with no severe crimp ring.

P.S. Sizing stops setback, not the crimp.

Thanks! Looking forward to getting some .357" bullets and with the HP-38 hopefully I'll be good to go.

[Yondering]

2 hours ago, Bench said:

I slugged the barrel and it came out to .356" so that would indicate that I should be loading .357" bullets(??).

 

I pulled 10 random bullets and crimps measured .378" to .379". There was no coating scalping but a very faint ring that was easier to feel with fingernail than to see by eye. I understand about loosening the crimp but how much farther can one go and still avoid set back?

 

Bullets measure .356"(+) prior to loading and the pulled bullets (mixed brass) measure .356" on the mark. None measured less than .356"

 

Yep, as we said earlier in the thread, .357" or .358" is where you'll need to be. .357" diameter is the minimum for your .356" barrel, not the maximum or the optimum diameter; you may have better results with .358". 

 

On the crimp - sounds like you're not crimping enough to cause an issue, so that's good. It's important to understand though that your crimp isn't doing much to prevent bullet setback, case neck tension does that. As long as your cases are sized down enough, you don't need to rely on crimp to prevent setback. This is a bit different from a hard recoiling revolver where we might want a heavy crimp to prevent bullets from moving forward, opposite of setback and with higher forces on the bullet. 

[Bench]

3 minutes ago, Yondering said:

On the crimp - sounds like you're not crimping enough to cause an issue, so that's good. It's important to understand though that your crimp isn't doing much to prevent bullet setback, case neck tension does that. As long as your cases are sized down enough, you don't need to rely on crimp to prevent setback.

Thanks, I'm getting that "coke bottle waist" in the finished ammunition so I'm assuming (again) that the original case sizing is good. Now on the hunt for .357-.358" bullets.

[Yondering]

That coke bottle waist is good, you shouldn't have any setback issues then. 

 

Sounds like you're on the right track. I'm 99% sure at this point that larger bullets will solve your leading issue.

 

[Bench]

22 minutes ago, Yondering said:

That coke bottle waist is good, you shouldn't have any setback issues then. 

 

Sounds like you're on the right track. I'm 99% sure at this point that larger bullets will solve your leading issue.

 

Thanks again...bullet size is about the only thing left to fiddle with...well, besides a new pistol.

[Postal Bob]

23 hours ago, Bench said:

 Now on the hunt for .357-.358" bullets.

Ibejiheads makes 9mm bullets in .357", and some weights up to .358".

[Steve RA]

Precision has one that works well for me:

 

https://precisionbullets.com/product/38-125-fp/

 

Buy the least amount you can and give them a try.  I use Australian Clays - 3.2 gr - (which you can't get anymore) and no leading and very little smoke, more on really humid days.

[Bench]

1 hour ago, Steve RA said:

Precision has one that works well for me:

 

https://precisionbullets.com/product/38-125-fp/

 

Buy the least amount you can and give them a try.  I use Australian Clays - 3.2 gr - (which you can't get anymore) and no leading and very little smoke, more on really humid days.

And the .358" should work in a slugged .356" barrel?