New Open Gun Build

[blackfatbob]

I'm starting to organize my thoughts for building a new open gun this fall/winter and would like some opinions on the following options.  This is for a 9mm Major gun and I'm a B shooter

 

1.  5" Threaded Schuemann Barrel with up to 4 Hybricomp ports machined as needed plus a external comp

2.  5" Standard Barrel (Nowlin or Barsto) Barrel threaded with cone comp

3.  6" Tribrid Schuemann no comp, long slide, no external comp,  (would like to hear about drawbacks of long slide recoil system if any, too)

 

I'm intrigued with the Schuemann ported barrels based on the 4.25" Single stack I'm finishing and would like to incorporate one in an open gun.  Considering 147 grain 9mm major loads

 

I'm currently shooting a 5" cone comped 40 open gun

 

Thanks

[Hi-Power Jack]

If you're using a .40 Open gun, and contemplating using 147 gr bullets

for 9mm Major loads, you have obviously decided NOT to use the

more conventional "wisdom" of using 115 or 124 gr 9mm Major

bullets.

 

You ask for opinions, and mine is that I would (and did) go with

conventional wisdom and use 124 gr 9mm Major loads.

 

Not sure why you would want to use bullets that are at the very

least more expensive, and possibly not quite as effective in a

comp as the lighter bullets ??

 

I'd be Very Interested in knowing what powder you use in that

.40 Open gun ???    

[blackfatbob]

21 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

If you're using a .40 Open gun, and contemplating using 147 gr bullets

for 9mm Major loads, you have obviously decided NOT to use the

more conventional "wisdom" of using 115 or 124 gr 9mm Major

bullets.

 

You ask for opinions, and mine is that I would (and did) go with

conventional wisdom and use 124 gr 9mm Major loads.

 

Not sure why you would want to use bullets that are at the very

least more expensive, and possibly not quite as effective in a

comp as the lighter bullets ??

 

I'd be Very Interested in knowing what powder you use in that

.40 Open gun ???    

Thanks, I appreciate any and all feedback.  I would likely experiment with anything from 88 gr JHP 380's all the way to 147gr.  The idea is not to be barrel twist limited by focusing on the light bullets only.  

 

My current load for 40 is MG 155JHP on top of Major Pistol in the 10 grain range, 1.185 oal

[Hi-Power Jack]

As you've found out already with the .40, lighter bullets usually produce more gas

to have better utilization of the comp.  The idea of using lighter 9mm bullets (not

147's) is similar - the 115's and 124's seem to have more gas to make the comp

work better than the 147's.  Nothing to do with barrel twist.   All about muzzle

rise.

 

There are people here who swear by their 147's, but I doubt you'd find many 147's

at the Nationals.

[caspian guy]

It would depend a little bit on what sport you are planning to shoot with that load.  For steel challenge that 88-90 grain bullet might be fine (have to check their rule book). For major in open there is a minimum bullet weight (112gr I think but check the rules.)

 

If I recall that dates back to the days of major being 175pf and people making major with 90gr bullets cratering steel.

[blackfatbob]

3 minutes ago, caspian guy said:

It would depend a little bit on what sport you are planning to shoot with that load.  For steel challenge that 88-90 grain bullet might be fine (have to check their rule book). For major in open there is a minimum bullet weight (112gr I think but check the rules.)

 

If I recall that dates back to the days of major being 175pf and people making major with 90gr bullets cratering steel.

Thanks for that.  I didn't realize USPSA had a bullet min for 9 major.  I'll check it out

 

So to extend the discussion on bullet weights, the underlying question is twist.  I think this only matters in the Schuemann world where Mike offers different rates.  How are you guys finding 115's and 124's running in 1:16 twist rates?  Or would a 1:24 gain twist or even a 1:32 constant twist make more sense?

 

HP Jack,  yeah, especially in 40 I had to go with lighter bullets to make gas for the comp.  I fiddled with 135's for a little bit, but the dot didn't track as well as the 155's.

[zzt]

Your 40 Open load is the same as mine.  With a four chamber, five port comp and two 3/16" poppels it is the flattest and softest shooting Open gun I own.   You will find that the matching 9mm Open load is 10.2 under a 115gr for 168~170PF.  You will also find that 9mm Open hits your hand harder than 40 Open.

 

You can experiment with bullet weights all you want.  You will quickly find out you cannot fit enough powder in the case to drive an 88gr bullet to major.  You will also find there is not enough powder under a 147 to 'work' the comp.  They shoot soft, but the muzzle rises quite a bit.

 

Barrel selection:  I have threaded bull barrel, standard with cone comp, and custom comp Trubore barreled Open guns.  A standard barrel with a steel cone comp is a full 2 oz. lighter than a threaded bull with the same comp.  The custom Trubore is a smidge heavier than the bull.  Barrel weight is reciprocating mass, so the lighter the barrel comp is, the less you have to lighten the slide.  Barrel idea 3 is not the way to go.  

 

Comps:   the purpose of a well designed comp is the pull the gun forward when fired.  The bore baffles you have in the comp (up to a point) the softer the gun shoots.  That is the case right up until you generate so much gas some of it jets out the front.  That increases felt recoil.  Seconderally, the comp directs some or all of the gas upwards and reduces muzzle rise.

 

Poppels or barrel ports:  The surest way to reduce muzzle rise at the expense of felt recoil.  The poppels/ports rob gas from the comp.  It doesn't 'work' as hard, so your hand gets hit harder.  The size and quantity of the barrel holes affects your load.  The 9mm case is really quite small.  You are used to a 40 case which is so huge by comparison you can fit gobs of powder an a small refrigerator in without filling the case.  No so with 9mm.  So you quickly reach a point that you cannot fit enough power in the case to make major.

 

Slides:  a 6" slide is a waste of time.  Mine are all 5" slides machined down to 10.5 oz.  It takes a lot of machineing to safely get down to that level and still ensure a bulletproof slide.  With a cone comp, you don't have to lighten as much.  With the Shuemann hybrid you are taking extra weight off the slide, which makes up for the heavier barrel.

 

Everything about building a 9mm Open gun is about balance and tradeoffs.  My recommendation is to start with only a comp, coned or not.  Work up a load.  If it doesn't shoot as flat as you like, and a poppel or two.  You'll have to add more powder to bring it back up to PF and it will hit your hand harder.  Basically, it comes down to how you want the gun to feel when shooting.  You don't have as many options as you do with 40 Open, so you have to choose wisely.

 

I type with two fingers.  I see that three others have replied while I was typing this, so some of it may already have been covered.

 

Added later:  my 16" twist 9mm barrels handle 115 HAPs fine and shoots literally same hole groups at 15 yards.  Good 115 bullets are not overstabilized at 1:16.

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by zzt

[blackfatbob]

Thanks ZZT,  I had an idea that the 40 would be a forgiving path, so I chose it for my first open build.  I haven't added any poppels to it at this point and probably won't with this gun.  I wouldn't hesitate to build another 40.  So far the only downside I have experienced is 25 rounds vs 28 in the big stick.  At my shooting level,  that isn't a big deal.

 

I have seen 9 major poppel holes develop cracks in DVC guns and that's where my interest in the Schuemann barrel came from.  If I were expecting to use poppels, I would lean toward a barrel with a rib in order to have more "meat" for the holes.  If I recall correctly, my slide weighs 11 oz machined on a manual mill.

 

BTW,  I'm running Bob's TC2 right now.  Have you come across anything better for a 40 comp?

[zzt]

I really like aircooled6racer's custom comps.  All three ports work and exhaust all the gas 10.2gr Major Pistol powder can generate.  The vortexes go forward and out to the sides.  You have a much clear view of the target for the second shot.  Another plus is he cuts the ports way forward, so if you want to add poppels later, you can add them in the comp.  I put two 3/16" poppels in a V2 config.

 

I bought two Trubore blanks from him with his comp cuts.  I really like it in the (mm double stack I built for USPSA.  The gun balances beautifully with a steel grip.  My only complaint is with the weight in the dedicated 1911 Open I built for steel.  I love the idea of a one piece barrel/comp but It is a little nose heavy in the 1911 and hurts my tendonitis.   It also feels slower in transitions than the 2011.  So I'm going to replace it with a KKM barrel and Binary Engineering Ti comp.  I originally went to the Trubore because I was tired of comps coming loose after monster matches.   That's not the case with SCSA matches, so I'll live with the two piece setup.

 

I had both of mine machined and fluted to get the weight down to 10.5 oz.  I'd urge you to at least consider it.  I'm astounded by the accuracy, and back to back 64 round count stages don't faze it a bit.

 

I still can't decide if I like 40 Open better, but I have so much money sunk in these two custom builds I'm sticking with 9mm. Below is a picture of my 2011 build.  After I'm sure I'm not going to do anything else to it, I'll tend to the cosmetics and have it finished.

 

 

 

  

[MikeBurgess]

Do you have a supply of Schuemann Barrels? I believe they are not currently available, although the web page is still up it says the store is closed  

 

you can get KKM or Infinity Island style barrels, Just a FYI

 

that said I would build a 9mm bull barrel with no popple holes,  they do make the gun a bit flatter but at the cost of more blast and holes or not the dot is still going to go up and come down the important thing is tuning the gun so it comes down to where it left from.

[blackfatbob]

23 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Do you have a supply of Schuemann Barrels? I believe they are not currently available, although the web page is still up it says the store is closed  

 

you can get KKM or Infinity Island style barrels, Just a FYI

 

that said I would build a 9mm bull barrel with no popple holes,  they do make the gun a bit flatter but at the cost of more blast and holes or not the dot is still going to go up and come down the important thing is tuning the gun so it comes down to where it left from.

I know it's hit or miss on these Mike.  If I decide to go with a Schuemann,  I can go on a waiting list since this is for a future build.  Appreciate the lead on KKM and SVI island barrels.

Edited August 12, 2019 by blackfatbob

[blackfatbob]

9 minutes ago, zzt said:

I really like aircooled6racer's custom comps.  All three ports work and exhaust all the gas 10.2gr Major Pistol powder can generate.  The vortexes go forward and out to the sides.  You have a much clear view of the target for the second shot.  Another plus is he cuts the ports way forward, so if you want to add poppels later, you can add them in the comp.  I put two 3/16" poppels in a V2 config.

 

I bought two Trubore blanks from him with his comp cuts.  I really like it in the (mm double stack I built for USPSA.  The gun balances beautifully with a steel grip.  My only complaint is with the weight in the dedicated 1911 Open I built for steel.  I love the idea of a one piece barrel/comp but It is a little nose heavy in the 1911 and hurts my tendonitis.   It also feels slower in transitions than the 2011.  So I'm going to replace it with a KKM barrel and Binary Engineering Ti comp.  I originally went to the Trubore because I was tired of comps coming loose after monster matches.   That's not the case with SCSA matches, so I'll live with the two piece setup.

 

I had both of mine machined and fluted to get the weight down to 10.5 oz.  I'd urge you to at least consider it.  I'm astounded by the accuracy, and back to back 64 round count stages don't faze it a bit.

 

I still can't decide if I like 40 Open better, but I have so much money sunk in these two custom builds I'm sticking with 9mm. Below is a picture of my 2011 build.  After I'm sure I'm not going to do anything else to it, I'll tend to the cosmetics and have it finished.

 

 

 

  

"You have a much clear view of the target for the second shot.  Another plus is he cuts the ports way forward, so if you want to add poppels later, you can add them in the comp.  I put two 3/16" poppels in a V2 config. "

 

Nice Pistol!  And that's exactly what I was looking for - putting the poppels in the comp.  What I saw with poppels on DVC guns reminded me of fire cracking.  And yeah,  I hear yuh on comps breaking loose.  It's  PITA

 

Appreciate the input a ton.

[rishii]

If you’re going with hybrid ribbed barrel, I’d suggest get one with a blank rib 

a 4 port hybicomp barrel bleeds a ton of gas and trying to make major with a 9 may be a problem, with a blank rib you can start with no holes, then have your Smith drill the rib to add holes if you want

 

btw if you ever get an answer from Schumann let us know, I’ve been looking for a blank 4 port length hybicomp barrel for years

[blackfatbob]

Will do Rishii,  its very hit or miss right now.  I just bought a commander length from stock no problem.  So it the shortage looks to be limited to the barrels for open gun builds.

[blackfatbob]

Bumping this with a new question.

 

What's the current wisdom on shorty Open Guns vs the standard 5" or 5.5"?  Building a shorty along the lines of the DVC Steel might be interesting.

 

All opinions welcome.

 

Thanks

[zzt]

There was a trend to go to 4.5" shorties, but that has waned.  A lot of the custom builders are pushing 5" midis instead of the 5.4" gov length.  I personally don't feel any difference in the hand.  The 5" has to be stroked to get the slide stroke back, and you have to clip the recoil spring to avoid stacking.  So you basically end up with a shorter gun that shoots the same as the 5.4.

 

I considered the 5" for my last builds, but I was tired of having comps come loose.  So I went with Trubore barrels with custom comp cuts.  The 2011 balances right where I want it.  With a 5" the slide is a tad lighter.  You also need more powder to make major.

 

If I ever decide I need a fifth Open gun, I'll build a 5" with a conversion cone and Ti comp, probably Binary Engineering's.

Edited August 16, 2019 by zzt

[blackfatbob]

10 minutes ago, zzt said:

There was a trend to go to 4.5" shorties, but that has waned.  A lot of the custom builders are pushing 5" midis instead of the 5.4" gov length.  I personally don't feel any difference in the hand.  The 5" has to be stroked to get the slide stroke back, and you have to clip the recoil spring to avoid stacking.  So you basically end up with a shorter gun that shoots the same as the 5.4.

 

I considered the 5" for my last builds, but I was tired of having comps come loose.  So I went with Trubore barrels with custom comp cuts.  The 2011 balances right where I want it.  With a 5" the slide is a tad lighter.  You also need more powder to make major.

 

If I ever decide I need a fifth Open gun, I'll build a 5" with a conversion cone and Ti comp, probably Binary Engineering's.

Thanks ZZT,  I was thinking of a 4.5" Slide with a government length recoil system.  This could get me into schuemann's barrel inventory of a 5" ribbed barrel that I could cut back and thread for a bull comp.  I'm stubbornly clinging to the idea of an island barrel for future poppels.

I've decided to stay with 40 at this time.  Just not worth the change in caliber for now.

[Whoops!]

1. is the best choice

 

No doubt, you will see more of the best shooters using that setup at major matches than any of the others you listed and there is a reason.

 

Less flip.

[rishii]

I would rethink using a Schumann barrel for the simple reason that supply is very limited to nonexistent and if you ever decide to rebarrel the gun, the odds are against you finding one

im in that boat now, I got a super that I want to rebarrel to 9 and I’ve pretty much given up finding one

if your heart is set on a ribbed barrel, I would look at a svi or KKM 

[zzt]

I'm just not afraid to put poppels in barrels.  My main 40 Open gun was shot for years with two 3/16" poppels with absolutely no ill effects.  IMO letting a Scheumann barrel drive your other choices is not wise.  I also think a 4.5" slide stroked to gov recoil length is going to be problematic.

 

I'm with rishi.  Go to Shooters Connection and buy a KKM ribbed barrel if you feel you absolutely have to have a rib.

[pjb45]

Sort of related: I had a SV 38SC schuemann barrel with poppel holes.  First of it obnoxious, the concussion was tough on the ROs.  Second, I only us VV3n38 powder, so I used a lot to get the comp to work for me. Third, Schuemann barrels are slower than Kart or Nowlin, hence you will need more powder (side by side testing of Schuemann v Kart was done at a GM's range)

 

Focus on the comp and get it to run with the powder/PF you need.  My worthless sense is the barrel and comp are critical.  Mix and match works for many people but life is easier when you get those two items to play well with each other.

 

In a dialog with a world and nat open champion, he related you can reduce muzzle flip or recoil but doing both at the same time was hard.  He preferred reduced muzzle flip and did not mind recoil.  His comment was the dot never leaves the brown.

 

FYI: I shot Nats with Mike.  He is a great guy.