my 15-22 is TOO light

[mstamper]

I know this sound counter intuitive to what everyone else says. 

Reason I am saying this is because I shoot a SIG Mpx PCC that is obviously much heavier than the 15-22. 

I shoot the Mpx in USPSA and am very comfortable with shooting it and with the weight and how I index the gun.

 

I find myself moving the 15-22 too much and having to come back on the plates and hence I am slower with the 15-22 over the Mpx when shoot SC.

I am currently using the stock plastic hand-guard on my 15-22 along with a stock buttstock. I shoot a Hiperfire 24c and a burris ff3 optic.

 

What I am wanting to do is to INCREASE the weight of the 15-22 to get it closer to the mpx weight. Problem is, I am not sure how best to do that. Should I add weight to the inside of the hand-guard? to the buffer tube, maybe in the pistol grip? All 3? 

 

I am interested in reading the responses.

 

thanks

Mark 

[MemphisMechanic]

Weight out front will have the largest affect. I’d look for an affordable steel handguard to throw a few ounces up front.

 

It’s also easy to undo if you decide you don’t like it.

Edited August 8, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[mstamper]

10 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Weight out front will have the largest affect. I’d look for an affordable steel handguard to throw a few ounces up front.

 

It’s also easy to undo if you decide you don’t like it.

I am looking to add a couple of pounds to the gun. I am hoping to get to a weight closer to my Sig

[Matt1911]

Swap to a heavier handguard and buttstock and see how that feels. 

if you need more after that you could look to a heavier optic like an Eotech 

[mstamper]

2 minutes ago, Matt1911 said:

Swap to a heavier handguard and buttstock and see how that feels. 

if you need more after that you could look to a heavier optic like an Eotech 

The way that the hand-guard attaches to a 15-22 is not exactly the same as a standard AR. 

One of the solutions I was thinking of doing was getting lead strips and putting them between the barrel and hand-guard and some lead shot into the base of the pistol grip. 

My Sig weighs in around 6+ pounds and the 15-22 is around 4. So I am looking to add about 1.5 to 2 pounds to the gun.

[Sarge]

22 minutes ago, mstamper said:

The way that the hand-guard attaches to a 15-22 is not exactly the same as a standard AR. 

One of the solutions I was thinking of doing was getting lead strips and putting them between the barrel and hand-guard and some lead shot into the base of the pistol grip. 

My Sig weighs in around 6+ pounds and the 15-22 is around 4. So I am looking to add about 1.5 to 2 pounds to the gun.

There are ways to mount standard hand guards on a 15-22

[Nolan]

14 hours ago, mstamper said:

I know this sound counter intuitive to what everyone else says. 

Reason I am saying this is because I shoot a SIG Mpx PCC that is obviously much heavier than the 15-22. 

I shoot the Mpx in USPSA and am very comfortable with shooting it and with the weight and how I index the gun.

 

I find myself moving the 15-22 too much and having to come back on the plates and hence I am slower with the 15-22 over the Mpx when shoot SC.

I am currently using the stock plastic hand-guard on my 15-22 along with a stock buttstock. I shoot a Hiperfire 24c and a burris ff3 optic.

 

What I am wanting to do is to INCREASE the weight of the 15-22 to get it closer to the mpx weight. Problem is, I am not sure how best to do that. Should I add weight to the inside of the hand-guard? to the buffer tube, maybe in the pistol grip? All 3? 

 

I am interested in reading the responses.

 

thanks

Mark 

 

If you are overswinging the target, it sounds like you may be driving the rifle to the next target while looking at the sights, rather than moving your eyes to the next target and snapping the rifle to your line of sight.  

 

I also occasionally shoot an MPX and have shot my 50oz M&P 15-22 at the same match.  To speed things up for the match, I shot them back to back on each stage.  I prefer to shoot the MPX first, but the last time I shot both, again to speed things up, I shot the 15-22 first, then the MPX so we could skip painting steel between guns.

 

If you want to swap handguards, you will need a conversion barrel nut and tool from Tacticool22.

https://www.tacticool22.com/product-category/handguard-and-forend-parts/handguard-conversion-kits/

 

You can swap just about any mil-spec carbine buttstock to the 15-22, just remove the original and install the one of your choice.

 

Nolan

 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Nolan

[mstamper]

25 minutes ago, Nolan said:

 

If you are overswinging the target, it sounds like you may be driving the rifle to the next target while looking at the sights, rather than moving your eyes to the next target and snapping the rifle to your line of sight.  

 

I also occasionally shoot an MPX and have shot my 50oz M&P 15-22 at the same match.  To speed things up for the match, I shot them back to back on each stage.  I prefer to shoot the MPX first, but the last time I shot both, again to speed things up, I shot the 15-22 first, then the MPX so we could skip painting steel between guns.

 

If you want to swap handguards, you will need a conversion barrel nut and tool from Tacticool22.

https://www.tacticool22.com/product-category/handguard-and-forend-parts/handguard-conversion-kits/

 

You can swap just about any mil-spec carbine buttstock to the 15-22, just remove the original and install the one of your choice.

 

Nolan

 

 

I know about the tacticool page. thanks for the link again.

I do not over swing with the mpx only the 15-22. It is truly a muscle memory thing. My body is so used to the MPX and the weight that the lighter 15-22 just moves differently and that is why I am looking to change the overall weight of the gun

[Hammer002]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 10:53 PM, mstamper said:

I know this sound counter intuitive to what everyone else says. 

Reason I am saying this is because I shoot a SIG Mpx PCC that is obviously much heavier than the 15-22. 

I shoot the Mpx in USPSA and am very comfortable with shooting it and with the weight and how I index the gun.

 

I find myself moving the 15-22 too much and having to come back on the plates and hence I am slower with the 15-22 over the Mpx when shoot SC.

I am currently using the stock plastic hand-guard on my 15-22 along with a stock buttstock. I shoot a Hiperfire 24c and a burris ff3 optic.

 

What I am wanting to do is to INCREASE the weight of the 15-22 to get it closer to the mpx weight. Problem is, I am not sure how best to do that. Should I add weight to the inside of the hand-guard? to the buffer tube, maybe in the pistol grip? All 3? 

 

I am interested in reading the responses.

 

thanks

Mark 

 

13 hours ago, mstamper said:

I am looking to add a couple of pounds to the gun. I am hoping to get to a weight closer to my Sig

 

13 hours ago, mstamper said:

One of the solutions I was thinking of doing was getting lead strips and putting them between the barrel and hand-guard and some lead shot into the base of the pistol grip. 

My Sig weighs in around 6+ pounds and the 15-22 is around 4. So I am looking to add about 1.5 to 2 pounds to the gun.

 

10 hours ago, mstamper said:

I do not over swing with the mpx only the 15-22. It is truly a muscle memory thing. My body is so used to the MPX and the weight that the lighter 15-22 just moves differently and that is why I am looking to change the overall weight of the gun

 

First, these are my credentials for this discussion:

 

A96146

RFRO:  64.95/72 = %110 GM  This is currently with a 15/22 only altered with an Allchin comp for the timer, a Geisslle trigger, and a CMORE 12 MOA red dot.

PCCO:  67.53/74 = %109 GM  Also heavier than my 15/22 as you describe

 

I give those not to brag (because they really aren't that great at a major match anyway!), but one, to quantify my experience compared to the usual posts who "think" they know what they are talking about, and two, I'm going to give you information and advice you either aren't going to be able to accept right away, or may argue as you already have against someone who already gave you part of it.

 

Next, don't take it just from me.  Your profile is in Georgia, which has a very strong Steel Challenge following and there are many very accomplished Steel Challenge Shooters in your immediate area to interact with.  The most predominant is a true champion and trainer, Steve Foster.  He gives lessons, offers advice, and does an amazing podcast with Jeff Jones.  Look up Steel Target Paint Podcast on Facebook.  I would strongly urge you to give a listen to the last podcast, OUTER LIMITS, as they briefly discuss this exact topic!  Hit Steve up on messenger, he is more than willing to respond and help.  Tell him Ben DeHaemers sent you!  And for what its worth, Steve started with a 15/22 as well.

 

Ok, first, Nolan already touched on the main topic - you are overswinging.  Your response to this was "muscle memory," which has quickly become a cringeworthy term in any reputable training facility because muscles have no ability to remember a single thing.  Doing the same movement over and over does not, nor will it ever, no matter the number of repetitions, teach a muscle to do something on its own.  Its your brain that learns.  For this topic your subconscious can be taught to be ready to see something it has seen before many times or expect to feel something a certain way.  Its your eyes that ultimately control everything, even at a subconscious performance level.  Never the muscles.  When you are practicing, you are training the brain to see with the eyes and tell the body what to do WITH alterations along the way, because movements are never perfect and Steel Challenge stages are rarely set up perfectly from one to another.

 

So, with all that said, Nolan is exactly right, you are overswinging due to how you are moving your eyes.  Most of us are taught the same way to properly transition a firearm of any kind from one target to another.  (Its at this point I will make a small disclaimer that the top pros are now doing something a bit different.  Will discuss in a moment)  We are taught to get the sight picture for the first target, fire the gun, DURING RECOIL move our eyes to the next target and fix our sight on it while the gun trails and comes within view and completes a sight picture on the next target, upon which we fire again.  You are overswinging because you are keeping your eyes either on the sight/dot during recoil on the first target, then moving both the eyes and gun at the same time toward the next target, seeing it, and passing it as you try to stop, needing to come back.  Here's how to see what I mean - pick a spot in the room to your far left.  Pick a spot in the room to your far right.  Pick one and point your finger at it.  Look at your finger.  Now move your eyes with your finger as fast as you possibly can to the other spot.  You will pass the spot and have to come back to it, just as you describe.  Now point at the same spot again and put your eyes on the other spot.  Again, move your finger as fast as you can to the spot you are looking at.  You should come much closer to stopping directly on the spot you are looking at without passing it.  OR the trouble may be you are wincing, flinching, etc, during recoil and moving the gun without actually looking at anything and moving the eyes behind the gun movement.  These are the two, AND ONLY TWO, things that cause overswinging!  The podcast I suggested also talks about grip, even on a rifle as affecting dot movement, but still falls into these categories.  Overswinging has little to do with gun weight, except to say a heavier gun is usually moving slower and/or easier to stop, but the same mistake is being made.  This is to say, no matter the gun weight, with proper transitions, any weight of gun can be effectively moved.  Volquartsen recently released an article comparing two of the stars in this sport, Kolby Pavlock and Cole Busch.  Kolby having set numerous recent world records at the world shoot using their INFERNO stock, weighing almost 8 pounds vs Cole Bush being equally successful with a ModShot stock making his rifle weigh about 3.5 pounds.  The difference is in how you transition with your eyes.  It also has to do with your grip on the gun, as mentioned in the podcast.

 

In reference to the disclaimer I mentioned, many of the top pros are getting good enough to transition keeping their eyes within the red dot lens or on/near the front sight.  This is a very advanced technique that takes a lot of practice.

 

What I'm saying is if you do the things you or others say in this thread, it will be at your own peril in the sport.  Adding weight to the gun is in no way the answer.  Even if it were to have a placebo effect early on, your progress in the sport will be shunted horrifically.  Some of the skills and techniques take time and practice to learn.  When I started, I shot my PCC far better than my rimfire, probably for the same reasons.  I made GM with my PCC first.  However, my rimfire times now either equal or mostly exceed my PCC times due to learning the proper technique and being able to take advantage of the lighter gun moving faster.  Your gun needs no alteration.  Its shooter does! 

 

The last thing I will mention, is I have come to the conclusion the 15-22 is one of the best rimfire rifles out there, and is by far the best out of the box regarding reliability.  I have had so few malfunctions with mine, while I watch guys with $2000 guns paw at them over and over during a match fighting a Ferrari with Walmart tires in the form of Ruger rotary mags not properly tuned or broke in.  The 15-22 is one of the most reliable guns I have ever had the pleasure of shooting over time.  The best way to completely ruin this reliability is to take it apart.  I have also come to the conclusion they simply are not meant to be taken apart and messed with.  There is a careful mix of steel and plastic that requires great care in attempting to disassemble, and in my opinion, never quite goes back the same nor easily accepts aftermarket products either simply because of the disassembly/assembly process, or the parts usually having tighter tolerances that just don't mesh.  And for the record, my discussion is about 10s of thousands of rounds or more, not the weekend plinker.  Now a bunch of people are going to rush in here telling me how great theirs is after changing this and that.  My experience, physically in person with MANY people having altered them and actually shooting these guns in my presence is they wind up having many issues with them.  Usually they wont feed reliably anymore.  They just don't go back together as well as before they were taken apart.  And there is no need.  I still have room to improve, and its not a wizbang part or adding/subtracting things from my rifle that will get me there, its ammo!  Lots and lots and lots of ammo.  Sir, you are the same.

 

I wish you the best of luck and hope to see you out there,

 

Ben

A96146    

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Hammer002

[lgh]

Nice post Ben.

[ezra650]

Ben nailed it. 

 

I did a similar experiment on a smaller scale with my 22/45. I shot the same course in practice with an aluminum comp vs a steel comp I borrowed. I took immediate notice of the difference in "swing weight". Initially I thought the steel comp would help me stop on target quicker thus being more accurate/faster. My times were exactly the same. I even did it again on a different day so I could start shooting cold with the steel comp. Times didn't change. Knowing that I choose to keep the aluminum comp as it's what I've been using and practiced with and I hadn't purchased the steel comp so more funds for ammo. When/If I trash the AL comp at some point I will probably go to the steel simply for ease of cleaning lol. I use a drill bit to clean my 22 comps. 

 

I did notice that immediately changing back to back on the comps did trick me into wanting to overswing going back to the AL, but trusting my eyes I had no problem with it. A dry run or 2 and I was good to go. I shoot my 22/45 lite immediately after my full size 1911/2011 at SC matches. Never even think about or notice the weight difference. 

 

Don't get lackadaisical with your grip on 22s/light guns either. I grip them just as hard as any center fire gun I shoot. It's just as important if not more so, because a light grip with a light gun equals extraneous dot movement more than you would realize. Not as much from recoil on a 22, but the movement from your body.

You will be fast with whatever you practice with.

 

I owned a 15-22 as a plinker then sold it, long before I ever shot USPSA/SC. I'm working on getting a 10/22 race ready now for SC. For $1k you can get one that weighs sub 3.5lbs total weight with a single stage 1.5lb trigger and an AR pattern stock. 

[cjmill87]

Ben,  incredibly well thought-out post and some great advice there.