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egd5

where is the rule?

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I don't shoot much idpa so I'm not familiar with a lot of the rules. But last weekend at a shoot I was told by a reliable person that once you have engaged a target, whether you hit it or not, you can step out from cover (aka-past the fault line) and shoot it again. This seems like a Godsend to me for those hard left lean targets.I'm shooting pcc. I'd like to print this out and carry it with me. Could someone provide a link, please, or tell me where to find it. Thanks.

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IDPA Rules seem to change with some frequency... but... my current understanding is this --- If you are required to engage a target from cover/fault line, and then required to move from that position to advance through the COF to engage additional targets... once you have engaged that initial target (cover/fault line target) with the required number of rounds, it becomes an 'engaged target' and can then be re-engaged anywhere on the COF (watch the 180!).

 

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Yeah, that's the way it was explained to me. I can throw two quick shots toward the target and step out and then pop it twice all a lot quicker than trying to switch sides and find it through my left eye and shoot while trying to stay behind that fault line.

I'd like to know the exact rule to provide to an so that thinks I need a pe for not staying behind that fault line.

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It's not that straightforward. Targets may be re-engaged from other shooting positions if it doesn't violate the 180, so if stepping over the fault line doesn't put you in what is technically another shooting position (think really extended fault lines from other positions) it may not be legal. On the other hand, if you initially engage over the fault line you still get the hits, just with a penalty for being over the fault line, so it can be argued that it is a shooting position. I've seen it called both ways.

 

The rule: 3.2.7 C. Targets may be re-engaged from other shooting positions provided the shooter does not break the defined Muzzle Safe Points see section 2.9.

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No such thing as a reliable person in IDPA unless it is the match director for that particular match.
Was gonna say only rule book is reliable,,, but then we are talking IDPA..
But even then. I find it unlikely you could legally slice the pie, round dump the targets, THEN step out and reengage same targets and end up with a better score than you would if you just shot the targets a bit slower from within the fault.  Not to mention the likely additional reload.
Think the best thing to do would be to practice those hard left lean engagements.

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2 hours ago, bdpaz said:

On the other hand, if you initially engage over the fault line you still get the hits, just with a penalty for being over the fault line

So I could just take a 3 second penalty, but get a down zero on the target. That would still be better than a miss or two -3 hits, or a hit on a non-threat.

Remember I'm shooting pcc and hard left leans are really hard for me because I just can't seem to aim with my left eye. I have a laser and use it. This scenario wouldn't happen often, but it would be handy to have in the toolbox for those times.

Of course, obviously, the 180 would not be broken.

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know there's been some rules changes, but if you intentionally break rules there are some onerous penalties.  so if you shoot from behind cover/fault lines, then just step out and blast them again, it won't be just a 3 second penalty.

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Well then, what will it be?

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https://www.idpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IDPA-Rulebook-2017.pdf

 

if you mistakenly don't shoot an array within a fault line, a 10 second FP would apply.  if it's clear you purposely faulted a fault line, a 20 second FTDR would apply.

 

5.2 Flagrant Penalty (FP) A Flagrant Penalty (FP) adds ten (10) seconds and is assessed, instead of a PE Penalty, in cases where an infraction results in a competitive advantage, such as failure to follow the instructions in a CoF and gaining a competitive advantage that cannot be addressed by a PE (i.e. score works out in competitors favor with a PE added). 5.2.1 Flagrant Penalties are assessed when: A. A shooter fails to follow the shooting procedures set forth in the written stage description and/or uses inappropriate equipment with the obvious intent of gaining a competitive scoring advantage. B. A shooter breaks a rule of the game. C. A conduct violation described in the Shooter’s code of conduct as determined by the MD. 5.2.2 Examples of an FP (non-inclusive list): A. SHO/WHO strings / stages shot Freestyle 2017 IDPA Rulebook 21 rev 2017.3 B. Not going prone when required C. Not fully engaging all targets as required D. Not following stage requirement that takes longer than 3 seconds to perform E. Shooting an entire array while faulting the line F. Staging an ammunition feeding device incorrectly G. Extra rounds in magazines All FPs must be approved by the MD.

 

5.3 Failure To Do Right (FTDR) 5.3.1 A 20 second Failure To Do Right penalty is assessed for gross unsportsmanlike conduct. Non-inclusive examples of this conduct are: Cussing out an SO, throwing a piece of their equipment on the ground, throwing a tantrum for any reason or violating the shooter’s code of conduct. 5.3.2 The FTDR is intended to be used solely as a penalty for acts on the part of the shooter to circumvent or violate the rules and by doing so gain a competitive advantage. A FTDR may be issued for violations of the Course of Fire, but not in cases of shooter errors where it is obvious that the shooter gained no competitive advantage by their actions. It should not be assessed for inadvertent shooter errors. In these cases, the shooter should be assessed a PE or FP, rather than an FTDR.

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OK, thank you. That's the kind of info I wanted.

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You messed up and asked publicly.

 

IDPA is hard at work making this action _officially_ illegal as we speak. 😈😂

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egd5 just to set it straight faulting a line isn't necessarily an FP. HQ has clarified that if a shooter has part of their foot on the wrong side of a fault line it is simply a PE. Stepping grossly over the fault line is an FP. Is it subjective? Of coarse. There was a video released awhile back. The FTDR is for gross un sportsman like conduct such as, ignoring all fault lines charging the targets and shooting them at point blank range. I have never seen one issued. 

 

As for shooting tight leans to the left. First you can bend your outside support leg lowering your center of gravity allowing you to lean farther out. Use a wider stance and rotate the gun counter clockwise as you lean out. Remember to keep the barrel clear of the wall as the offset can trick you and you may just end up putting rounds into the wall. You may have to crowd cover a little more than normal. As a last you can do the shoot and fall over the fault line method, Only works if you have one target to shoot or are very fast on the trigger. There is no rule that says you have to end standing behind cover just that you cant fire shots out of cover unless legally re engaging a target. I do not subscribe to the switching hands for left side targets. Its unnecessary gun handling that could get you into trouble. Dropped gun while switching hands or breaking the 180. Not impossible but it requires you to train your brain to run with the gun in your left hand now. I run much faster when I don't have to think about what my gun is doing because it is ingrained. With practice it all becomes easier.

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8 hours ago, egd5 said:

or not, you can step out from cover (aka-past the fault line) and shoot it again.

90% of the time this is incorrect. you have my email, email me so we can talk in a less public place about this specific instance.

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Your best bet would be to ask the SO on the stage if he's going to PE you. If you don't like his answer you can go to the MD then AC. You will run into issues trying to do this.

 

But, by the rules you can make up shots from other positions. Someone quoted the rule above. Now to me, other positions would mean other shooting positions as defined in the WSB. But, HQ has clarified that somewhere that it means anywhere in the stage. The only thing you can do is go past the final fault line as it could be the limit of the stage.

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