where is the rule?

[egd5]

I don't shoot much idpa so I'm not familiar with a lot of the rules. But last weekend at a shoot I was told by a reliable person that once you have engaged a target, whether you hit it or not, you can step out from cover (aka-past the fault line) and shoot it again. This seems like a Godsend to me for those hard left lean targets.I'm shooting pcc. I'd like to print this out and carry it with me. Could someone provide a link, please, or tell me where to find it. Thanks.

[GOF]

IDPA Rules seem to change with some frequency... but... my current understanding is this --- If you are required to engage a target from cover/fault line, and then required to move from that position to advance through the COF to engage additional targets... once you have engaged that initial target (cover/fault line target) with the required number of rounds, it becomes an 'engaged target' and can then be re-engaged anywhere on the COF (watch the 180!).

 

[egd5]

Yeah, that's the way it was explained to me. I can throw two quick shots toward the target and step out and then pop it twice all a lot quicker than trying to switch sides and find it through my left eye and shoot while trying to stay behind that fault line.

I'd like to know the exact rule to provide to an so that thinks I need a pe for not staying behind that fault line.

[bdpaz]

It's not that straightforward. Targets may be re-engaged from other shooting positions if it doesn't violate the 180, so if stepping over the fault line doesn't put you in what is technically another shooting position (think really extended fault lines from other positions) it may not be legal. On the other hand, if you initially engage over the fault line you still get the hits, just with a penalty for being over the fault line, so it can be argued that it is a shooting position. I've seen it called both ways.

 

The rule: 3.2.7 C. Targets may be re-engaged from other shooting positions provided the shooter does not break the defined Muzzle Safe Points see section 2.9.

[Joe4d]

No such thing as a reliable person in IDPA unless it is the match director for that particular match.
Was gonna say only rule book is reliable,,, but then we are talking IDPA..
But even then. I find it unlikely you could legally slice the pie, round dump the targets, THEN step out and reengage same targets and end up with a better score than you would if you just shot the targets a bit slower from within the fault.  Not to mention the likely additional reload.
Think the best thing to do would be to practice those hard left lean engagements.

[egd5]

2 hours ago, bdpaz said:

On the other hand, if you initially engage over the fault line you still get the hits, just with a penalty for being over the fault line

So I could just take a 3 second penalty, but get a down zero on the target. That would still be better than a miss or two -3 hits, or a hit on a non-threat.

Remember I'm shooting pcc and hard left leans are really hard for me because I just can't seem to aim with my left eye. I have a laser and use it. This scenario wouldn't happen often, but it would be handy to have in the toolbox for those times.

Of course, obviously, the 180 would not be broken.

[davsco]

know there's been some rules changes, but if you intentionally break rules there are some onerous penalties.  so if you shoot from behind cover/fault lines, then just step out and blast them again, it won't be just a 3 second penalty.

[egd5]

Well then, what will it be?

[davsco]

https://www.idpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IDPA-Rulebook-2017.pdf

 

if you mistakenly don't shoot an array within a fault line, a 10 second FP would apply.  if it's clear you purposely faulted a fault line, a 20 second FTDR would apply.

 

5.2 Flagrant Penalty (FP) A Flagrant Penalty (FP) adds ten (10) seconds and is assessed, instead of a PE Penalty, in cases where an infraction results in a competitive advantage, such as failure to follow the instructions in a CoF and gaining a competitive advantage that cannot be addressed by a PE (i.e. score works out in competitors favor with a PE added). 5.2.1 Flagrant Penalties are assessed when: A. A shooter fails to follow the shooting procedures set forth in the written stage description and/or uses inappropriate equipment with the obvious intent of gaining a competitive scoring advantage. B. A shooter breaks a rule of the game. C. A conduct violation described in the Shooter’s code of conduct as determined by the MD. 5.2.2 Examples of an FP (non-inclusive list): A. SHO/WHO strings / stages shot Freestyle 2017 IDPA Rulebook 21 rev 2017.3 B. Not going prone when required C. Not fully engaging all targets as required D. Not following stage requirement that takes longer than 3 seconds to perform E. Shooting an entire array while faulting the line F. Staging an ammunition feeding device incorrectly G. Extra rounds in magazines All FPs must be approved by the MD.

 

5.3 Failure To Do Right (FTDR) 5.3.1 A 20 second Failure To Do Right penalty is assessed for gross unsportsmanlike conduct. Non-inclusive examples of this conduct are: Cussing out an SO, throwing a piece of their equipment on the ground, throwing a tantrum for any reason or violating the shooter’s code of conduct. 5.3.2 The FTDR is intended to be used solely as a penalty for acts on the part of the shooter to circumvent or violate the rules and by doing so gain a competitive advantage. A FTDR may be issued for violations of the Course of Fire, but not in cases of shooter errors where it is obvious that the shooter gained no competitive advantage by their actions. It should not be assessed for inadvertent shooter errors. In these cases, the shooter should be assessed a PE or FP, rather than an FTDR.

[egd5]

OK, thank you. That's the kind of info I wanted.

[MemphisMechanic]

You messed up and asked publicly.

 

IDPA is hard at work making this action _officially_ illegal as we speak.

[Diver123]

egd5 just to set it straight faulting a line isn't necessarily an FP. HQ has clarified that if a shooter has part of their foot on the wrong side of a fault line it is simply a PE. Stepping grossly over the fault line is an FP. Is it subjective? Of coarse. There was a video released awhile back. The FTDR is for gross un sportsman like conduct such as, ignoring all fault lines charging the targets and shooting them at point blank range. I have never seen one issued. 

 

As for shooting tight leans to the left. First you can bend your outside support leg lowering your center of gravity allowing you to lean farther out. Use a wider stance and rotate the gun counter clockwise as you lean out. Remember to keep the barrel clear of the wall as the offset can trick you and you may just end up putting rounds into the wall. You may have to crowd cover a little more than normal. As a last you can do the shoot and fall over the fault line method, Only works if you have one target to shoot or are very fast on the trigger. There is no rule that says you have to end standing behind cover just that you cant fire shots out of cover unless legally re engaging a target. I do not subscribe to the switching hands for left side targets. Its unnecessary gun handling that could get you into trouble. Dropped gun while switching hands or breaking the 180. Not impossible but it requires you to train your brain to run with the gun in your left hand now. I run much faster when I don't have to think about what my gun is doing because it is ingrained. With practice it all becomes easier.

[rowdyb]

8 hours ago, egd5 said:

or not, you can step out from cover (aka-past the fault line) and shoot it again.

90% of the time this is incorrect. you have my email, email me so we can talk in a less public place about this specific instance.

[Racinready300ex]

Your best bet would be to ask the SO on the stage if he's going to PE you. If you don't like his answer you can go to the MD then AC. You will run into issues trying to do this.

 

But, by the rules you can make up shots from other positions. Someone quoted the rule above. Now to me, other positions would mean other shooting positions as defined in the WSB. But, HQ has clarified that somewhere that it means anywhere in the stage. The only thing you can do is go past the final fault line as it could be the limit of the stage.

[PigSnowball]

On 7/31/2019 at 6:54 AM, Racinready300ex said:

Your best bet would be to ask the SO on the stage if he's going to PE you. If you don't like his answer you can go to the MD then AC. You will run into issues trying to do this.

 

But, by the rules you can make up shots from other positions. Someone quoted the rule above. Now to me, other positions would mean other shooting positions as defined in the WSB. But, HQ has clarified that somewhere that it means anywhere in the stage. The only thing you can do is go past the final fault line as it could be the limit of the stage.

 

This is my understanding of the rules as well. You would be arguing that you are re-engaging that target from the next POC. The final POCs fault line however is effectively the end of the stage, there's no out for shooting on the otherside of that last fault line.

[Arlin]

Don't forget about Rule 5.4 E.  You can be disqualified for discharging your firearm at anything other than a target.  Just throwing two shots downrange would follow this as far as I am concerned.

[jhgtyre]

1 hour ago, Arlin said:

Don't forget about Rule 5.4 E.  You can be disqualified for discharging your firearm at anything other than a target.  Just throwing two shots downrange would follow this as far as I am concerned.

So you are saying you'd count the berm as "anything other than a target"?  Hopefully all of our shots are impacting a berm so I'm not seeing the logic here.

[rowdyb]

I'd only seen that rule used to back up a match saying if you shot one of their props they'd dq you. Not as some ersatz way of penalizing you for round dumping, which is explicitly legal.

[elguapo]

On 7/30/2019 at 5:44 PM, Joe4d said:

I find it unlikely you could legally slice the pie, round dump the targets, THEN step out and reengage same targets and end up with a better score than you would if you just shot the targets a bit slower from within the fault.

 

I've done exactly that and the "RO" gave me a PE.  I and the rest of the squad showed him in the rulebook where he was wrong.

 

The exact situation was that a swinger was to be shot from P1, which was uprange of P2.  The barrel that hid the swinger mechanism was right inside P2's fault line to your left and well away from the 180.  The swinger was the last target to be engaged from P1.

 

I watched several before me and noticed that if you were quick enough you could get to P2, engage everything you needed to engage, take a step or two back from the fault line, and snap another two at the swinger before it slowed enough to leave you little to nothing exposed.

 

When my turn came up I engaged the P1 visible targets, hit the popper activator, and double tapped the swinger not caring if I hit it or not.  Rushed to P2, ran that array, took two steps back and blasted two down 0s into the swinger which was still moving enough for me to see the center.

Edited November 9, 2019 by elguapo

[Joe4d]

unless you are really new,  you'd realize IDPA is all about make it up as they go along, no 2 rulings or matches are the same...  Been that way sense it started.

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Joe4d

[elguapo]

32 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

unless you are really new,  you'd realize IDPA is all about make it up as they go along, no 2 rulings or matches are the same...  Been that way sense it started.

 

 

I'm not new to IDPA.

 

I don't back down when an IDPA SO makes up a rule or gives me a penalty for something legal.

[45 Raven]

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

unless you are really new,  you'd realize IDPA is all about make it up as they go along, no 2 rulings or matches are the same...  Been that way sense it started.

 

IDPA is not perfect.  As far as I know, no shooting sport meets that definition.  It's pretty true (in my experience) that no two matches are the same.  And if they were, there are a lot of shooters who would tire of the sport fairly quickly.  I have only been shooting IDPA matches for nine years, but I have never witnessed a match (including Level 1 local matches) where the rules were "made up as they go along".  Never.

 

And I remain perplexed why shooters engage is endless battles against the sport of other shooters.  Shooters have enough enemies without arguing with each other about their choice of shooting discipline.  Constructive criticism is fine, but it doesn't seem that hard to just pick another discipline in the shooting game if you find one you don't like.

[elguapo]

12 hours ago, 45 Raven said:

IDPA is not perfect.  As far as I know, no shooting sport meets that definition.  It's pretty true (in my experience) that no two matches are the same.  And if they were, there are a lot of shooters who would tire of the sport fairly quickly.  I have only been shooting IDPA matches for nine years, but I have never witnessed a match (including Level 1 local matches) where the rules were "made up as they go along".  Never.

 

IDPA isn't perfect, and no other sport is.  That is true.  But IDPA's path to improvement has been hamstrung by its apparent insistence to not learn from other, similar shooting sports.  It seems at times that IDPA's leadership goes out of its way to be contrarian.  I give you the massive resistance to adopting faultlines, and the eventual half-hearted adoption as prime example, and its continued insistence in telling shooters how to solve the problem as supporting evidence.

 

Joe's comment about "no two rulings or matches ever being the same" might seem odd if you take it literally.  I understand what he means.  It means there's still a wide variety of SO competence in the understanding and application of the rulebook as well as stage designs that leave zero room for shooter discretion in how to solve the problem.  It's real.  I've seen it. 

 

Fact of the matter is, shooters do tire of IDPA's forced lack of free thought in stage designs and execution.  And shooters most definitely tire of inconsistent rulings and sometimes outright refusal to recognize new rules just because an SO doesn't like them or doesn't think they meet "intent" whatever that means.  That's why my shooting schedule is full of USPSA matches and I shoot IDPA only as an occasional diversion when I want to break out a six shooter.

 

IDPA has potential to be great.  But three things hold it back. 

• Its refusal to change its target engagement rules to allow for a more freestyle approach while driving the use of "cover" using target placement and fault lines
• SO competency.  Just seems weak compared to what I see locally in USPSA
• The lack of an official ruling listing.  Meaning maintained by IDPA's chief SO (or whatever their equivalent is) and published on IDPA's own website.  Not on facebook or some forum.

Edited November 10, 2019 by elguapo

[Racinready300ex]

On 11/9/2019 at 10:29 PM, 45 Raven said:

IDPA is not perfect.  As far as I know, no shooting sport meets that definition.  It's pretty true (in my experience) that no two matches are the same.  And if they were, there are a lot of shooters who would tire of the sport fairly quickly.  I have only been shooting IDPA matches for nine years, but I have never witnessed a match (including Level 1 local matches) where the rules were "made up as they go along".  Never.

 

And I remain perplexed why shooters engage is endless battles against the sport of other shooters.  Shooters have enough enemies without arguing with each other about their choice of shooting discipline.  Constructive criticism is fine, but it doesn't seem that hard to just pick another discipline in the shooting game if you find one you don't like.

 

Made up as they go might be worded a bit aggressively. But, you have to know what he means and of seen similar if you've been shooting IDPA as long as you claim.

 

I shot a level 3 this year and they were enforcing reloading rules in the open differently on two stages in bays that were right next to each other. They may not of literally been making it up, but it could certainly seem that way as you shot the match. I was also told at a level 2 this year that a popper was not engaged until it fell, shooting at it didn't count. At a level 4 I ran out of ammo on the last target and only shot once. I received a PE, and a FP on top of my -5 for that. We could debate which one I should of gotten, but why did I get both? 18 seconds of penalty time on a 17 second stage.

 

A more recent match I saw something that seemed silly to me. Prone position, shooting under a car. No cover, target equal distance engage in any order you want. But, there were fault lines, if you're foot was out you got a PE. Now the rule book says fault lines are there to ensure the shooter is behind cover, so why would they use them when there is no cover? Just to give out PE's? This was at the World Championship.

 

This was all just in the last year of major matches only. I think these are probably examples of what makes people think the rules are made up on the fly.

[racknrider]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Made up as they go might be worded a bit aggressively. But, you have to know what he means and of seen similar if you've been shooting IDPA as long as you claim.

 

I shot a level 3 this year and they were enforcing reloading rules in the open differently on two stages in bays that were right next to each other. They may not of literally been making it up, but it could certainly seem that way as you shot the match. I was also told at a level 2 this year that a popper was not engaged until it fell, shooting at it didn't count. At a level 4 I ran out of ammo on the last target and only shot once. I received a PE, and a FP on top of my -5 for that. We could debate which one I should of gotten, but why did I get both? 18 seconds of penalty time on a 17 second stage.

 

A more recent match I saw something that seemed silly to me. Prone position, shooting under a car. No cover, target equal distance engage in any order you want. But, there were fault lines, if you're foot was out you got a PE. Now the rule book says fault lines are there to ensure the shooter is behind cover, so why would they use them when there is no cover? Just to give out PE's? This was at the World Championship.

 

This was all just in the last year of major matches only. I think these are probably examples of what makes people think the rules are made up on the fly.

Did the MD approve your FP?