Local rules v. USPSA

[nasty618]

Seems that it's not that uncommon for local clubs do enforce their own rules as they see fit.  Most people shooting local matches don't know the rules of the game,  things like scoring and division specific equipment are not even on their radar, much less what to do about being DQed for reloading with the muzzle over the berm...  Here is another "local" rule - how about forbidding certified ROs from actually running shooters and requiring additional training or sign offs from the local CRO/acting RM? 

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

When someone is telling you where to engage targets in which order, it's harder to break the 180. 

 

Not in my experience as an r.o. / s.o. . 

On a number of shooters basis seems like I've had to make the call on more IDPA shooters, maybe because that sport seems to bring in more of the new/casual competitors. 

[Bagellord]

On 7/30/2019 at 9:38 AM, shred said:

The 'No local rules' rule works both ways.  One BOC-owned club I know of wanted to impose a ton of stupid 'safety' rules on the USPSA club that wanted to shoot there.

 

After being told they couldn't do that per the USPSA rules, it turned out they wanted the USPSA match money just a bit more than they wanted their stupid rules, but it was a close call. 

 

If that goes away we'll need separate rulebooks per range...

 

 

What extra rules did they want?

[bret]

On 7/26/2019 at 4:40 PM, robchavous said:

We have a local indoor club that will end your night if you shoot into one of the side walls.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

 

On 7/26/2019 at 4:53 PM, mreed911 said:

 

Using which USPSA rule?  Have you reported this to the section director?

A sidewall is not considered a berm at many ranges.

 

[DKorn]

3 hours ago, bret said:

 

A sidewall is not considered a berm at many ranges.

 

 

Under 10.4.1, the WSB could state that the side walls aren’t a backstop and will be considered an unsafe direction. This would mean that shots fired at the side walls would be a DQ.

 

However, 10.4.1 also goes on to state that a shot fired at a target which then continues on in an unsafe direction is NOT a DQ, but most indoor ranges I’ve been to that want to DQ people for shooting the side walls don’t care whether you were shooting at a target or not.

 

The solution is to design the stages so that there’s no place where you could take a shot that would then hit the side wall, not to try to enforce something not allowed under USPSA rules. 

 

 

[ATLDave]

On 8/20/2019 at 2:20 PM, DKorn said:

The solution is to design the stages so that there’s no place where you could take a shot that would then hit the side wall, not to try to enforce something not allowed under USPSA rules. 

 

That is, indeed, the primary solution.  However, many indoor matches have very limited windows for set-up time, and sometimes there are positions where some sliver or highly-acute angle shot is technically available yet unsafe, and fixing that would add 30 more minutes to setup time (and knock at least one stage out of the match due to time constraints).  So the club (that wants to be allowed to continue using the range) announces that shots that go into side walls are unsafe.  

 

It's not a thing that people actually object to in person.  

[Sdlrodeo]

25 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

That is, indeed, the primary solution.  However, many indoor matches have very limited windows for set-up time, and sometimes there are positions where some sliver or highly-acute angle shot is technically available yet unsafe, and fixing that would add 30 more minutes to setup time (and knock at least one stage out of the match due to time constraints).  So the club (that wants to be allowed to continue using the range) announces that shots that go into side walls are unsafe.  

 

It's not a thing that people actually object to in person.  

 

Well said. Not really a big deal most of the time. 

[Joe4d]

3 hours ago, Sdlrodeo said:

 

Well said. Not really a big deal most of the time. 

 

4 hours ago, ATLDave said:

That is, indeed, the primary solution.  However, many indoor matches have very limited windows for set-up time, and sometimes there are positions where some sliver or highly-acute angle shot is technically available yet unsafe, and fixing that would add 30 more minutes to setup time (and knock at least one stage out of the match due to time constraints).  So the club (that wants to be allowed to continue using the range) announces that shots that go into side walls are unsafe.  

 

It's not a thing that people actually object to in person.  

baloney, I shot indoor IDPA on a small single bay range for years when I was new. Never even heard about side wall, was never mentioned, til I joined club. Wasnt a DQ it just wasnt mentioned. Stages were set up so bullets hit backstop or bullet traps.
Ans we ran 8 stage state level matches.

[ATLDave]

If all the stages are really simple go-here-shoot-array-X-on-berm, go-here-shoot-array-Y-on-berm, yes, it is super easy to not have to worry about wall shots.  If the match is trying to present more interesting stages that more closely approximate the feel of "real" outdoor stages, then geometry gets really complicated in a hurry.  If you've got bullet traps to work with, then that also makes it easy.

 

But getting complicated geometry completely right, with no oblique visibility anywhere of any wall-shot target is not easy to do in 45 minutes of setup time.  And it's even harder to be certain that you've done it.  So, as a safety measure and to make sure the club doesn't get kicked out of the range (thus ending the match forever), sometimes the MD/RM reminds people not to do anything that creates a wall shot.  

 

Here's the thing: I have never, ever seen anyone actually DQ'ed for this.  Because, in real life, people aren't generally jerks.  They understand the concept "hey, don't get us kicked out of this range forever or kill someone in the next bay just because we missed a gap in a wall that makes it possible to shoot a target at a 175° angle."   Nobody is building stages that force people to consciously monitor that stuff... they're just telling people not to "game" some obscure defect in the stage design/setup and create a match-ending situation.  In the context of matches with an hour to set up, everyone understands the reasonableness of this direction.  

Edited August 22, 2019 by ATLDave

[nasty618]

I am splitting from this thread to avoid hijacking that topic ... but i am interested in hearing about other's thoughts and experiences on this.

 

57 minutes ago, Sarge said:

no consequence as far as USPSA goes unless they have written permission from HQ to use a club rule. But I always remind people any club can ban anybody. 

I seem to recall either an RO seminar discussion or a thread on here where the general consensus was - yes you can be banned from the club, but you cannot be denied entry into a USPSA match as a member in good standing if the club wants to keep their affiliation.

 

So here is what i would like to know.  How much can a club get away with and is section 3.3 just a paper tiger when it comes to enforcement of local club policies? 

 

Here is a example: a local club denies entry into their USPSA match to classified USPSA members in good standing who have never been to that club, citing that the competitor doesnt have L2 or higher experience and/or have not taken a USPSA intro course approved by the club.  There is no Prez approval on file with the HQ for this.  They also seem to apply this rule selectively as 95% of people at that club dont know what Level 2 match is, much less have participated in one.   

 

Has any club ever lost their affiliation for stuff like that? Probably not... but maybe they've been given a slap on the wrist at least? I mean it's clear that there is a symbiosis - USPSA needs club money, club needs match money... so is it really in organization's best interest to "discipline" a club that's repeatedly enforcing their local rules, overriding section 3.3? 

 

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

I am splitting from this thread to avoid hijacking that topic ... but i am interested in hearing about other's thoughts and experiences on this.

 

I seem to recall either an RO seminar discussion or a thread on here where the general consensus was - yes you can be banned from the club, but you cannot be denied entry into a USPSA match as a member in good standing if the club wants to keep their affiliation.

 

So here is what i would like to know.  How much can a club get away with and is section 3.3 just a paper tiger when it comes to enforcement of local club policies? 

 

Here is a example: a local club denies entry into their USPSA match to classified USPSA members in good standing who have never been to that club, citing that the competitor doesnt have L2 or higher experience and/or have not taken a USPSA intro course approved by the club.  There is no Prez approval on file with the HQ for this.  They also seem to apply this rule selectively as 95% of people at that club dont know what Level 2 match is, much less have participated in one.   

 

Has any club ever lost their affiliation for stuff like that? Probably not... but maybe they've been given a slap on the wrist at least? I mean it's clear that there is a symbiosis - USPSA needs club money, club needs match money... so is it really in organization's best interest to "discipline" a club that's repeatedly enforcing their local rules, overriding section 3.3? 

 

 

If that happened to me I'm be getting in touch with my Area Director and getting it sorted.

[nasty618]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

If that happened to me I'm be getting in touch with my Area Director and getting it sorted.

 

Why not directly with the Prez and DNROI?

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

 

Why not directly with the Prez and DNROI?

 

Well, it's in the AD's area he can probably handle it. No need to go over his head.

[nasty618]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Well, it's in the AD's area he can probably handle it. No need to go over his head

Makes sense, thank you.

 

Curious if there were any other examples that people could share where similar scenarios happened with local clubs.  Of course, with respect to privacy and anonymity, if needed.

[HI5-O]

Here I was told another local club ran their annual championship match. One stage had two Cooper tunnels where you had to shoot through ports while in the tunnel. The MD decided to DQ shooters who reloaded while in the tunnels. No reason was given on why they didn’t want anyone reloading in the tunnels. Some shooters questioned why DQ but that sounded like it started an argument.

 

10 round mag law 

Edited October 1, 2019 by HI5-O
Add info

[mreed911]

8 minutes ago, HI5-O said:

The MD decided to DQ shooters who reloaded while in the tunnels. No reason was given on why they didn’t want anyone reloading in the tunnels. Some shooters questioned why DQ but that sounded like it started an argument.

 

 

DQ for what?  Every DQ has to have an associated rule that was violated. 

[HI5-O]

11 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

DQ for what?  Every DQ has to have an associated rule that was violated. 

I wasn’t there and the ones who went and got DQd wasn’t quoted a rule when they questioned why. Don’t know what they listed as the reason and they used PractiScore so maybe it’s in PractiScore somewhere. 

 

12 competitors were DQd in this match of 62 competitors, yikes (don’t know if was for reloading in CT)

Edited October 1, 2019 by HI5-O

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, nasty618 said:

Makes sense, thank you.

 

Curious if there were any other examples that people could share where similar scenarios happened with local clubs.  Of course, with respect to privacy and anonymity, if needed.

We have at least one shooter around here who is banned from multiple clubs in a few states. USPSA is aware. Private property clubs with no boards or other BS are awesome. “Hey you, get off my property and don’t ever come back” .

[shred]

Drawing and holstering is still verboten in a tunnel.  I have a vague memory that reloads once were also long ago.

 

[perttime]

Drawing or holstering a handgun within the confines of a tunnel is also verboten under current IPSC rules. No mention about reloading. I suppose it is also possible to do other DQable offences in a tunnel, especially in a particularly awkward one.

[mchapman]

10-5-4 EXAMPLES OF UNSAFE GUN HANDLING