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CO. if my dot died halfway in a match and i shot the rest

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16 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I would say no to falling off being a issue but slipping forward (we have all see the guy with the crap holster that slides around) and you would have shot a stage out of compliance per the ruling (I need to check to make sure it was incorporated and not just removed with the rule book update) and you would have shot stage for no score. 

 

 

but the rules say your stuff has to be attached to your belt, and stay in the same place. If it breaks and falls off (esp in front of your hipbone), you have cheated just as much as if your optic breaks. Some sort of dire punishment is in order.

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18 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Any competitor who shoots a course of fire while out of compliance will receive a zero score for that course of fire, unless specifically exempted by the Range Master. 

 

so if holster slides during the stage, after the shooter has drawn his gun (say, when he goes prone), would you say the competitor shot the course of while out of compliance? I'm not sure I could say that with a straight face.

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I would have a very hard time moving somebody to open for an equipment failure during a stage. I have witnessed an outer belt getting yanked off by a doorway, which definitely moved the holster and mags more than 2” from the inner belt. Competitor mashed it back on as good as he could and kept going. 

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6 hours ago, Kiwishoot said:


A pretty broad and peculiar example 🙂

I'd be leaning towards IPSC 5.7 with your equipment malfunction during the COF, so the RO should stop you. It'll be scored as shot up to the malfunction and there's no re-shoot, and if you choose to rock up to the next stage with a non divisional firearm, the path is pretty clear.

Any malfunction falls under that rule? Jams, dot failure on Open guns, etc?

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Not sure why this is in question:

 

Quote

5.1.6 Firearms must be serviceable and safe. Range Officers may demand examination of a competitor’s firearm or related equipment, at any time, to check they are functioning safely. If any such item is declared unserviceable or unsafe by a Range Officer, it must be withdrawn from the match until the item is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master.

 

"Related equipment" would include optics.  If a competitor didn't mention his dot failed and just shot with iron sights, nobody would know... just like if someone never turned on their dot.  Beyond an RO examining the pistol and optic to determine if the optic was serviceable, there's no other recourse.  The RM can withdraw the firearm from the match, but I'd expect that could be arbitrated because there's no specific wording in the CO Appendix or in the general rules about an attached optic vs. having it turned on or being able to turn it on.

 

That probably needs to be addressed in a rule update - optic must be serviceable and course must be shot with optic on.  Even so, the next "gamer" step would be to put the dot into a far corner of the optic and continue to use the open sights.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

Not sure why this is in question:

 

 

"Related equipment" would include optics.  If a competitor didn't mention his dot failed and just shot with iron sights, nobody would know... just like if someone never turned on their dot.  Beyond an RO examining the pistol and optic to determine if the optic was serviceable, there's no other recourse.  The RM can withdraw the firearm from the match, but I'd expect that could be arbitrated because there's no specific wording in the CO Appendix or in the general rules about an attached optic vs. having it turned on or being able to turn it on.

 

That probably needs to be addressed in a rule update - optic must be serviceable and course must be shot with optic on.  Even so, the next "gamer" step would be to put the dot into a far corner of the optic and continue to use the open sights.

 

Are you trying to suggest that using iron sights in a dot division would be an advantage? Cuz if that were true, wouldn't people use iron sights in open and pcc, where no optic is required?

 

The whole requirement for an optic looks to me like it was purely an attempt to keep Stoeger from mocking USPSA and the CO division by winning the first CO nats with his production gun. He joked about entering with his prod gun, and the rules were immediately adjusted to require an optic.

Edited by motosapiens

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13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Are you trying to suggest that using iron sights in a dot division would be an advantage? Cuz if that were true, wouldn't people use iron sights in open and pcc, where no optic is required?

 

The whole requirement for an optic looks to me like it was purely an attempt to keep Stoeger from mocking USPSA and the CO division by winning the first CO nats with his production gun. He joked about entering with his prod gun, and the rules were immediately adjusted to require an optic.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

we could call it 'timmay!'

Sweet baby jesus, we must do this.

 

moto's posts are straight fire in this thread, yo.  

Edited by ATLDave

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39 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Are you trying to suggest that using iron sights in a dot division would be an advantage? Cuz if that were true, wouldn't people use iron sights in open and pcc, where no optic is required?

 

The whole requirement for an optic looks to me like it was purely an attempt to keep Stoeger from mocking USPSA and the CO division by winning the first CO nats with his production gun. He joked about entering with his prod gun, and the rules were immediately adjusted to require an optic.

 

I've met GM's who believe this is the case.  They're personally measurably slower on follow-up shots waiting to reacquire the dot vs. the front sight post.

 

In open and PCC the optic isn't moving.  In CO, it is.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

I've met GM's who believe this is the case.  They're personally measurably slower on follow-up shots waiting to reacquire the dot vs. the front sight post.

 

In open and PCC the optic isn't moving.  In CO, it is.

Sounds like some GM's don't practice with a dot. Slow follow-up shots are definitely a thing for novices.

 

Have any of those GM's compared the results of major matches to see if the production GM's are outshooting the CO gm's?

 

At A1, the difference was pretty dramatic. National-level production competitors got beat by local A class CO shooters. Same at A4. National level production GM's, on the podium, getting beat by local A class CO dudes.

Edited by motosapiens

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^ This.

 

There was a barely-plausible view that irons might be faster for many shots... right up until the data started coming in.  It's perfectly clear - the dot, even a reciprocating dot, is a massive advantage.   

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1 hour ago, mreed911 said:

 

I've met GM's who believe this is the case.  They're personally measurably slower on follow-up shots waiting to reacquire the dot vs. the front sight post.

 

In open and PCC the optic isn't moving.  In CO, it is.

Are these GM's full time Irons shooters that tried a dot a few times?  I'm just a measly M class but having shot lots of optics and Irons divisions I can say that the dot does not slow me down.  I will say that the information flow is so different between a Dot and Irons that it took a while to get comfortable going fast with one.

 

Dot = Binary, you either see the dot and know where the bullet will land or you don't  all or nothing.

Irons = Analog, as you see more or less of the sights you get more or less information about where the bullets will go, its not all or nothing its little to much, never quite as lost and never as sure.

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29 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Are these GM's full time Irons shooters that tried a dot a few times?  I'm just a measly M class but having shot lots of optics and Irons divisions I can say that the dot does not slow me down.  I will say that the information flow is so different between a Dot and Irons that it took a while to get comfortable going fast with one.

 

Dot = Binary, you either see the dot and know where the bullet will land or you don't  all or nothing.

Irons = Analog, as you see more or less of the sights you get more or less information about where the bullets will go, its not all or nothing its little to much, never quite as lost and never as sure.

 

Thisbis exactly what I was thinking when I read the post about GMs thinking the dot was slower. 

 

when I switched from irons to dot it took me a bit to get used to it. If one was to just pick up a dot and try it out for a few practice sessions, I’d argue it would not be as fast as what the shooter was used to. 

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10 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

I've met GM's who believe this is the case.  They're personally measurably slower on follow-up shots waiting to reacquire the dot vs. the front sight post.

 

In open and PCC the optic isn't moving.  In CO, it is.

 The optic can be mounted on the slide. It does move. 

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17 hours ago, Sdlrodeo said:

 

Thisbis exactly what I was thinking when I read the post about GMs thinking the dot was slower. 

 

when I switched from irons to dot it took me a bit to get used to it. If one was to just pick up a dot and try it out for a few practice sessions, I’d argue it would not be as fast as what the shooter was used to. 

There is definitely a learning curve to go from irons to a dot. Once you are proficient wit the dot, it will be faster on most stages. Some stages with all the targets up close, dots may not be faster, but with medium to long targets, the dot will be faster. However, there some folks that have been unable to adapt to dots.

 

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13 hours ago, pjb45 said:

 The optic can be mounted on the slide. It does move. 

 

Which division are you referring to?  If you're referring to CO, that's explicitly what I said.

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40 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

Which division are you referring to?  If you're referring to CO, that's explicitly what I said.

I'm using a slide mounted optic on my Open gun, since 2005. Never used a frame mount.

 

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On 7/25/2019 at 2:27 PM, Sarge said:

Any malfunction falls under that rule? Jams, dot failure on Open guns, etc?


Any malfunction that would lead you to think it's an unsafe firearm, including multiple mis-fires, as there could be unsafe ammo leading to a squib.

So I would call it, yes but only if a competitor has bits falling off their gun, I'd argue it's rather unsafe. As I wouldn't know what else is breaking, or about to fall off. Mind you this is a hypothetical case as I've never seen a dot fall off during a COF. 

Dot failure however would fall under the usual "that's a shame" but if YOU have finished ... rule 🙂  Your loose/flat battery is your problem, not my safety problem.

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7 hours ago, Kiwishoot said:


Any malfunction that would lead you to think it's an unsafe firearm, including multiple mis-fires, as there could be unsafe ammo leading to a squib.

So I would call it, yes but only if a competitor has bits falling off their gun, I'd argue it's rather unsafe. As I wouldn't know what else is breaking, or about to fall off. Mind you this is a hypothetical case as I've never seen a dot fall off during a COF. 

Dot failure however would fall under the usual "that's a shame" but if YOU have finished ... rule 🙂  Your loose/flat battery is your problem, not my safety problem.

Hmm.. unsafe ammo is a thing in USPSA too but parts falling off? I have seen sight fall off, thumb rests fall off, slide rackers fall off, etc. I can’t imagine stopping a shooter for that stuff

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12 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

Which division are you referring to?  If you're referring to CO, that's explicitly what I said.

Open.  

Slide mounted open guns exist. Even a former Area 2 Director used one. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Open.  

Slide mounted open guns exist. Even a former Area 2 Director used one. 

 

 

I only know of one or two guys who go this route. I believe they use Doctors and they seem to hold up. One of them is an AD as well.😊

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15 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I only know of one or two guys who go this route. I believe they use Doctors and they seem to hold up. One of them is an AD as well.😊

Yeppers. 

My limited experience was with open guys who also shoot open 3 gun. Seems like Cali guys went this route. 

 

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10 hours ago, Sarge said:

Hmm.. unsafe ammo is a thing in USPSA too but parts falling off? I have seen sight fall off, thumb rests fall off, slide rackers fall off, etc. I can’t imagine stopping a shooter for that stuff

 

I saw a comp fall off once🤣🤣

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On 7/26/2019 at 3:33 PM, Kiwishoot said:


Any malfunction that would lead you to think it's an unsafe firearm, including multiple mis-fires, as there could be unsafe ammo leading to a squib.

So I would call it, yes but only if a competitor has bits falling off their gun, I'd argue it's rather unsafe. As I wouldn't know what else is breaking, or about to fall off. Mind you this is a hypothetical case as I've never seen a dot fall off during a COF. 

Dot failure however would fall under the usual "that's a shame" but if YOU have finished ... rule 🙂  Your loose/flat battery is your problem, not my safety problem.

 

If the firearm is unsafe, you don't get a reshoot. You only get a reshoot if you are stopped for a suspected safety problem that turns out to not be valid (i.e. suspected squib, but the barrel is clear). If your gun is doubling/tripling and you get stopped, the stage is scored as shot.

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I have a G card in both Open and Limited.  I'm faster out of the holster and/or on close targets with irons.  Soon as the match becomes more than just Can You Count on every bay, the dot pulls ahead every time.  Distance is where the dot wins bigly, not close-in hosing.

 

With CO going to 20+ rounds, the comparisons to PD get much less valid, although I think Stoeger (IPSC Prod 15 rd) beat Max (IPSC PDO-something also 15 rd) in the overall at IPSC Nats.

 

 

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