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Help with accuracy, please look at my targets


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I hoping someone can offer some advice.  I've been practicing a lot with dryfire, .22, and 9mm.  The targets I attached are from tonight using a SA XDM 5.25 9mm 10 yards away from the targets.  

 

I'm sure that I'm breaking my wrist down during the shot (self diagnosis from ball and dummy drills).  I've been working hard to eliminate this but it still persists.  When I'm shooting my Ruger 22/45 I can get all center hits and shoot out the red center (minus a flyer or two).  During dry fire I'm dead on as well using a laser trainer 9mm cartridge.   I'm pretty sure that I am not breaking my wrist down at all with the .22 but with the 9mm you can see where there is a nice group and the paper is missing, it's roughly about 1 to 2" low from bullseye.  Can anyone offer some advice or tips on how to fix this?  While I'd like all my rounds to go through the same hole, I'll settle for them touching each other or pretty darn close in the bullseye.  Also, this is slow fire shooting, taking a second or two to aim and then taking the shot.

 

Is it just more practice and trying to mentally break myself from flinching/anticipating/breaking wrist down?  Would getting a heavier gun like a CZ Shadow 2 fix (or mask) the problem because it would be softer shooting?

 

Thank you!

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Possible Cause 1:

 

It’s likely that you’re subconsciously pulling the gun downward - trying to drive it back down on target when it recoils. The only problem is that you’re a millisecond too early.

 

Work on gripping the gun HARD with both hands. As in, make a guy receiving a handshake from you wince. Seek to control recoil passively by having your wrists, hands, and forearms sprung tautly because of this grip pressure. The gun will fire and simply snap right back on target.

 

It’s much more efficient than driving the gun back down with a muscle twitch after the bullet is gone.

 

Possible Cause 2:

Something is causing you to pull the gun downward as you pull the trigger. Things to try:

 

(1) Again, grip extremely hard. See if anything changes when you make a grip alteration.

 

(2) Try shooting another 9mm gun. A Glock or P320 or Walther or whatever. Some guys just don’t jive with some guns, and that’s okay.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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Yes, I know I'm doing this (subconsciously breaking the wrist down), confirmed with ball and dummy drills and my MantisX.  I have been gripping hard like you mentioned, but that's not fixing the problem.  I still find myself doing it even after much practice.  I'm hoping someone who had this same problem can tell me what worked for them...I'm hoping the answer isn't that it's too ingrained in your head and there is no fix... :(

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Have you had anyone else that is a quality shooter, and able to call their shots, shoot the gun?  Before you go to crazy on the self diagnosis, you need to make sure the sights are actually not the issue.  Also, how are you aligning them? post top, flat with rear, etc?  

 

At 10 yards, that looks very much like the sights are off and less like a trigger pull problem to me.  You have some vertical stringing which could also be a barrell/lockup issue with the gun, but having another good shooter shoot the gun would confirm it's either a "you" issue or a gun issue.

 

You should never assume that sights from the factory are going to be sighted in or even correct for that matter.  You always need to confirm that the sights are "on" and if you aren't confident that you're able to do that, have someone else shoot it to see if the impact area is in the same spot.

 

Low shots like that are more of a "few here and there" rather than a consistent every shot pattern.  Ie a few low shots would signal your flinching, anticipating, breaking wrists, etc but to be doing that on every single shot, is much more likely to be a sights or aiming issue with those sights.

 

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No expert here, but I have had to work through accuracy issues and this is a few things that helped me.  I started shooting with ONLY one goal in mind.  SEE THE SIGHT LIFT.  That was the thing that helped me the most.   I suspect that part of the reason that helped was I was getting a perfect sight picture and then jerking the trigger.

Also as I got more into USPSA and started to practice shooting at weird angles, shooting in and out of position, etc I figured out my wrist tension was inconsistent.   I don’t know if that was an issue back when accuracy standing still at 10-15 yards was an issue, but I suspect it was.  This is similar to what Memphis said.  I also think it would be wise to verify that it’s not just the sights or how you align them/focus on them.  I have purchased 3 used guns which were sighted in from experienced shooters and every time I found I would shoot high with them.  My groups were good so I assume it is just the way I align/focus on the sights.  I always just adjusted the sights and the guns worked fine for me.   The good news for you is that you aren’t pulling them left or right.

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Are you shooting the 9mm indoors ?   Possible cause is simply too much jarring noise

and you are anticipating it.

 

Try double muffing and shoot outdoors  -  might help.     :) 

 

Is this slow or rapid fire ?

 

Possible the low shots are 2nd shot in a 2-shot burst ?

 

Have you tried this with a solid platform (bench) ?

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Another issue is the trigger pull type. The 22/45 is single action w/ short pull vs the xdm is double action w/ a long pull. Learn the dao pull first. Stay away from the 22/45 for awhile until you can shoot  the xdm trigger w/ confidence. 

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The 10” target actually isn’t the best picture to post because I was doing some drills on there that weren’t slow fire now that I think about it. But I’ve noticed when I do use a timer it makes the anticipation worse and therefore shots go lower as seen on 10” target. The 7” target would be a good one to analyze because all of those were slow fire.

Sorry for confusion.

Also I’m sure it’s not sights. It’s just me anticipating and shooting low. So really just looking for advice on getting over that.

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1 hour ago, Inline said:

The 10” target actually isn’t the best picture to post because I was doing some drills on there that weren’t slow fire now that I think about it. But I’ve noticed when I do use a timer it makes the anticipation worse and therefore shots go lower as seen on 10” target. The 7” target would be a good one to analyze because all of those were slow fire.

Sorry for confusion.

Also I’m sure it’s not sights. It’s just me anticipating and shooting low. So really just looking for advice on getting over that.

 

Try the 50/50 drill. Load one round, get the mag out. Shoot one shot, shoot the next dry. Repeat. It´s amazing what you can see on the second shot. Watch your sights carefully.

Don´t shoot to slow. Your brain shouldn´t have to much time to realize that the second shot is dry.

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First of all, I will never understand why oh why targets get so many rounds in them. When I spend money for range time and ammo, I want to know where each shot went. I try and shoot 10 rounds into a target - if I am "on" the bulls eye is usually done by then. Perhaps I will go 15 or 20 if things are not going well and the target is not too cluttered.

It's hard to believe you have a MantisX and that has not solved your problem. If you are averaging above 90 on the mantis,  it can only be you sight technique.

If you are NOT averaging above 90, well then keep at it.

If you are breaking wrist down, then check your grip.

This is the best grip video I have found:

 

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3 hours ago, JimD_21 said:

First of all, I will never understand why oh why targets get so many rounds in them. When I spend money for range time and ammo, I want to know where each shot went. I try and shoot 10 rounds into a target - if I am "on" the bulls eye is usually done by then. Perhaps I will go 15 or 20 if things are not going well and the target is not too cluttered.

It's hard to believe you have a MantisX and that has not solved your problem. If you are averaging above 90 on the mantis,  it can only be you sight technique.

If you are NOT averaging above 90, well then keep at it.

If you are breaking wrist down, then check your grip.

This is the best grip video I have found:

 

Dryfire and livefire are two different things. It´s stress to your brain shooting live ammo. An explosion in front of your face, recoil, loud bang, thats stress. 

Your brain wants to to do a defensive move to fight the problem. You could be dryfire world champ, but do flinch in livefire. It´s almost always some kind of recoil anticipation, IMO 

 

I think John Lovell is very right, right here: 

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On 7/24/2019 at 4:27 AM, Hi-Power Jack said:

Are you shooting the 9mm indoors ?   Possible cause is simply too much jarring noise and you are anticipating it.

 

Try double muffing and shoot outdoors  -  might help.     :) 

I want to second Jack's advice. Double plugging is important to my shooting success, especially indoors.

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  • 6 months later...

Do you notice your shots walking downward the further you get through the mag?  In other words, are your first few shots dead center and slowly stray downward as you empty the mag?  If so, you are flinching...as was stated already. I have/had the same problem. What helped me was relaxing the grip with my dominate hand and tightening the grip with my off hand. And also, thousands of rounds of practice haha. It’s tough not to flinch with an explosion going off 18 inches in front of your face. 

Edited by Mig233
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Listen to TGO's Action Target 3 second YouTube post.  It might also add value to previous statements.

 

Clearly your are breaking the shot with a bad sight picture.  Your sights moved for some reason.

 BE has some interesting insight on trigger control.  

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Another option is remove your muscles from the equation not allowing you to anticipate recoil and drive the gun down. Bring your gun up and roll your shoulders straight down dropping them into a little pocket. Forces your arms to move with your upper torso and helps eliminate some muscle during firing.

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I will also agree with Jack's advice on increasing hearing protection. Another possible avenue to pursue would be evaluating your grip/wrist strength. Do you start out hitting to point of aim and then progressively hit lower and lower or is it more random?

One more thought. What's the difference in grip angle between the 22 and 9mm pistols? If you're practicing much more with the 22 then you may be building up the so-called "muscle memory" to that grip angle and when switching to the 9mm your body still has the perception of what feels normal to return to after recoil/muzzle rise.

Edited by Distant Thunder
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No one has asked this, so I will.  When you say you've been practicing a lot, what does that mean?  When I was getting started in my young 20's I would shoot about 100 rounds a month and really do no dry fire practice and I thought that was "a lot" of shooting.  My first year of shooting 5000 rounds coupled with dry fire training at least an hour a week, I made considerable gains.  There's a lot of tips and tricks and such on this forum and they're all very good advice, but nothing beats practice and experience.

So how long have you been shooting and how much are you practicing per week? (inflated numbers will sound better, but won't help you honestly address the issue).  If the answer is less than an hour a week, than don't spend a bunch of money on a different gun or training tool.  There's a device that cost $.01 that you can balance on your front sight while you pull the trigger that will help immensely (the deluxe version cost $.10)

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  • 7 months later...

All shots are 12 to 6.  No flyers at 3 or 9.  From this I would say trigger and grip are in the ball park.  I would look at your shoulders rising or breaking at the waist.  These areas of the body will push the gun forward and down from a flinch.  Stand in front of a mirror, with your fist punch straight out.  While doing this watch your shoulder.  The object is to move your hand or fist out and back with out razing the shoulder  A trick is to imagine your hand is being pulled out with a rubber band not pushed out by the shoulder.  Everything we do in movement starts at our core.   One more tip, look at your hands as mittens not hands.  The only thing allowed to move is the trigger finger.  Don't wrap your fingers around the grip, wrap your whole hand around the grip.  Dave Dawson sells a product called Pro Grip, a grip enhancer.  This product helps your support hand wrap tighter to the back of your strong hand.  This product allows me to better feel my strong hand push and weak hand pull of my grip.  

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On 7/24/2019 at 1:45 PM, bimmer1980 said:

Your brain wants to to do a defensive move to fight the problem. You could be dryfire world champ, but do flinch in livefire. It´s almost always some kind of recoil anticipation, IMO 

 

I think John Lovell is very right, right here: 

I think so too.

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I’ve noticed on my XD’s that if I just keep pulling the trigger my groups and accuracy are better. What I mean is once your lined up just pull it, no creeping, no pause, no hesitation just pull it back as fast as you can without moving the sights. A PRP trigger kit helps too. Have you also tried changing the back straps to see if that helps? But if the sights are lining up good then that’s not the problem.

 

Holy Crap this thread is over a year old! I gotta start looking at dates closer. Anyway hope you got your problem fixed by now!! 🤪

Edited by Farmer
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