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Rpope423

Fault lines?

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Posted (edited)

Shot a tier 2 match today, at the shooters meeting we was informed that at last years sanction match everybody complained that  the fault lines was painted with gloss paint and they was slick and angles was way to tight. So his way of fixing it was lighten up angles BUT he used 2x4’s for fault lines and told us that we was not aloud to place our foot on it AT ALL, foot couldn’t be rolled up on it, cannot stand on it. The only way you could stand near a fault line was if your foot was right up against it. 

 

Now my question, with it being a tier 2 sanctioned match can they legally due that per IDPA?   Now I did read rule 6.3 about fault lines, but I’m still curious if this is possible? 

 

This is first time I’ve ever ran into this.

Edited by Rpope423

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I saw it early on when fault lines were first introduced. 

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So it is legal to make your own rules as a match director at a sanctioned match?

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Posted (edited)

The rule is that you may not shoot while touching the ground or other object on the far side of the fault line.  Which can be anything to mark a line. 

While we are used to treating the top far edge of a board as the fault line, and therefore can stand on the board, there is nothing saying that the MD may not define the fault line as the inside edge of the board and not allow standing on the board.

 

I never ran up against that approach as Rowdy did, but I rather expected to when fault lines came in.

 

I shot an indoor match on Monday.  It is hard to stick a board to a concrete floor and tape gets you into an unnatural motion, looking at your feet instead of locating the target.

So the MD found some thick rubber mats.  Standing behind a barricade on a half inch of rubber is a definite indication you are inside the fault line with little tripping hazard. 

Edited by Jim Watson

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It was a huge tripping hazard especially when you had multiple fault lines on one stage. I was just waiting to see EMS roll up cause someone with leg issues didn’t pick his feet up enough to get over the fault line. I seen a couple guys about trip over it because who the hell is use to 2x4’s for a fault line, we also had an amputee shooter and I’m sure it made it somewhat difficult for him. 

 

Needless to say say I will not be back to that place for a sanctioned match again. One of them deals I would’ve not been mad one bit if I got DQ’d for something stupid.  

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well go back and reread 6.3, also 3.6.. which says about the same thing. Up to the shooter to plan a route to avoid tripping on lumber. Might also want to check out 1.1E...
I'm gonna go out on a limb but Id say stepping over some sticks, boards or sidewalks might be right up that ones alley.
2X4's tend to be 3.5" so not over 4 inches. As Jim said. Nothing in the rules prohibits using the inner edge of the board as a fault line.
While it does seem IDPA has always had a local, make it up on the spot rule, I dont think this is the case here.
I think what you have is a MD, that took feed back from last years match. Looked in the rule book. Understood the rule book. Applied a fix within the rules.

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as a competitor, it is just an issue when you get used to one thing and then out of the blue are faced with another. spend 3 months stepping on a 2x2 and then go to a match and now you can't step on the 2x4. but, also as a competitor you have to adjust to the challenges you face.

 

but for personal preference i don't really care about the material, surface treatment or size. i just want them reasonably solid on the ground and to be able to stand on them.

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45 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

as a competitor, it is just an issue when you get used to one thing and then out of the blue are faced with another. spend 3 months stepping on a 2x2 and then go to a match and now you can't step on the 2x4. but, also as a competitor you have to adjust to the challenges you face.

 

but for personal preference i don't really care about the material, surface treatment or size. i just want them reasonably solid on the ground and to be able to stand on them.

Exactly I’m use to rolling my foot kinda on them and pushing off them to my next position. I just think it’s crap to alter rules on day of match I only got called on it twice out of 11 stages. I think the MD just likes being arrogant I overheard a lady say last year he was laughing at people that struggled with angles and people that was sliding on the fault lines.

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So please explain to me what rule was altered.
Whole point of IDPA fault lines was to get rid of the arbitrary and unequally applied BS cover calls. 
Now for each match everything is uniform with a black and white place. Like it should be.  Big step in right direction far as I am concerned.
I think you guys are trying to apply USPSA rules and norms to IDPA.
IDPA match has no obligation to do something that you are used to from USPSA.

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He set a rule saying you wasn’t aloud to step on the fault lines when clearly you are fully aloud to step on fault lines per IDPA as long as you don’t touch anything on the other side of the fault line. It was a sanctioned match not a local. pulled this crap day of the match and it threw a lot of people off and made a lot of people furious with the match.

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3.6 States:

 

C.  A shooter who engages a target while faulting the line (which is defined as the shooter touching the ground or other objects on the non-cover side of the fault line) shall be assessed a PE. 

 

So it sounds like you can stand on the 2x4.  I don't see anything in the rules that says you can decide the fault line is just the inside of a board but I do see rules defining how wide the board used as a fault line can be.

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Posted (edited)

.

Edited by Rpope423

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29 minutes ago, jhgtyre said:

3.6 States:

 

C.  A shooter who engages a target while faulting the line (which is defined as the shooter touching the ground or other objects on the non-cover side of the fault line) shall be assessed a PE. 

 

So it sounds like you can stand on the 2x4.  I don't see anything in the rules that says you can decide the fault line is just the inside of a board but I do see rules defining how wide the board used as a fault line can be.

EXACTLY. He made up his own rules which if I recall is not legal? correct?

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fully legal and no made up rules.  Sorry if it is beyond your reading comprehension. Dont know what else to say


NOTHING in the rules says you cant make the inside edge of a 2X4 the fault line.
Touch top of 2X4 ? You are touching an object on the non cover side of the line.

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Mmm not technically. Top of a fault line is not the non cover side. 

 

This all reason why USPSA will continue to take off and IDPA just spins wheels, because way to many rules that you have to read way to far into to make sure your not breaking any rules.

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Supply rule numbers supporting your assertion Joe4d.

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Couple of things I want to reassert here:

  • generally everywhere else in the usa you can stand on a fault line. a majority of people are used to that action. so a fault line you can only butt up against is a minority action/decision.
  • if you are a competitor you have to be ready for odd things. i remember the days in idpa when every serious competitor brought a flashlight to every match for example. (though I don't see that anymore) now a-days you have to be ready for regional variances in fault lines. you may not like it but if you're really a competitor you have to accept the challenge.
  • qtip. which stands for quit taking it personally. reacting emotionally doesn't help.
  • be careful what you wish for when a md asks for feedback and and then interprets/applies what they've been given.
  • everything and nothing are trip hazards on the range. loose fault lines are a mistake.

 

Now a personal story. I went to the infamous Florida State match, of the super high dq rate and the bi-color fault lines. One fault line, the one more distal, was painted orange. The other fault line, painted white and more proximal to the shooter. These two fault lines were placed parallel and touching  each other along their long width forming one big fault line that was a white "in" section and an orange "faulting" section. So you could possibly stand on it, but if any portion of your shoe was on the orange you were penalized. To avoid this most people just ran the edge of their shoe up against the white part like a curb/berm rather than standing on top of it. When the MD asked me what I thought of the match this was one thing I told him I was completely against and should never be repeated because 1. it is not the norm. 2. it is extra work in placement and materials. 3. there is no tactile way for the shooter to tell if they are faulting or not.

 

There is no moral to the story. Just that I have seen fault line usage I totally didn't agree with. And I did speak to the MD about it and had reasons that could be clearly stated, not just "this is dumb!"

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Right, you have the allowable and you have the norm.  The "inner edge" MD is within the rules but outside the norm so he will be criticized and even lose attendance. 

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I remember this being debated at first with the introduction of fault lines. I think it's legal, as long as your told up front about it. I don't like it, and I'm happy it's not the norm.

 

It's not something to get upset about really, certainly if locals are accustom to doing it that way they might have a home field advantage. Like Rowdy said, going into IDPA you have to know that things will likely be different then you're used to and adapt as you go. Try not to get upset about it, being upset will just make you shoot worse. Then you'll be more upset.

 

If the MD is really just doing stuff to be a PIA, I wouldn't go back. Not worth it IMO.

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I don't see that the "inside edge" is legal. Look at: 3.6.3 C. A shooter who engages a target while faulting the line (which is defined as the shooter touching the ground or other objects on the non-cover side of the fault line) shall be assessed a PE.

 

The "inside edge'" fault line does not have a non-cover side so how can it be legal fault line?

 

I agree that it isn't worth getting wound up over, and there are plenty of legal fault line option that would be just as stupid, but the "inside edge" is not legal.

 

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I can see someone saying that one facet is enough different than the other so that the "other object" wording makes using different sides of the same stick acceptable.

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Okay so this MIGHT be how you could say the inside edge of a 2x4 was the fault line; you paint it.  This creates a simpler version of the crazy fault line painting story that rowdyb related up above.

I added the bold emphasis below.

Quote

3.6.2 Fault lines must be marked in such a way that they are consistent for each shooter. Examples of fault line materials are a physical barrier such as a barrel or short wall, a tightly stretched rope, dimensional lumber, angle iron, tape, paint or a flat metal bar.


So you paint one edge of a 2x4 (or whatever legal sized board you want) stake it down and declare that the paint, not the board, is the fault line.  It seems controlling (for little reason other than to be controlling) but that is how you could state that this scenario is legal.  Given the wording in the rule you could also apply tape to the 2x4 to create your fault line.  Why you would create this extra work for yourself is beyond me but you could do it.

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I wouldn’t say I got “wound” up. It was more of the fact you could tell the MD was being a pain in the rear. I would’ve liked to see a total of how many PE was fault lines for that match though. 

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Y’all are making this way too difficult.  Both sides of the fault line were clearly defined AND they followed the rule book.  End of first hand, fact based observation. 

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1 hour ago, Wheelgun1981 said:

Y’all are making this way too difficult.  Both sides of the fault line were clearly defined AND they followed the rule book.  End of first hand, fact based observation. 

Your first hand, fact based observation would carry more weight if it included actual details.  Care to share how both sides of the fault lines were defined and, if it is out of the ordinary, the rules that justify it?

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