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J_Allen

Single stack missing major PF - load to ten?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

The rule I can point you to is the RM has to approve the gun change. If I am the RM this is what I would do.

 

SIR YES SIR!

 

ok, I’ll admit that was a bit snide. 

 

I agree with 5.1.7 that a competitor can’t swap guns if the first isn’t broken. 

 

If by loading to 10 as in the OP because he went minor, I don’t agree with:

“Third if they only went minor, they continue to shoot in the same condition that they fired the first shot.” 
 
The above seems like a hybrid ruling. 
 
As as long as it is legal in the division, there is technically no competitive advantage. Minor follows minor rules, Major follows major rules for whatever division is applicable. 
 
 
 
Edited by Sdlrodeo

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24 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

Is this in the rules?

 

 

Hmm. perhaps we should search the rulebook and see.......

Quote

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original firearm and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute firearm and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied: 5.1.7.1 The substitute firearm satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division. 5.1.7.2 In using the substitute firearm the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage

 

yep, it looks like you can only change guns if the one you started with becomes unserviceable or unsafe.

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42 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

No one actually does give a crap about the difference between 20 and 23 rounds, just saying.

 

It's worth testing tho. I'm by no means an elite shooter, but if I have to move more than 3-4 feet, I can do it in the same time with or without a reload. so I don't stress about stages where trying to do only 1 reload will push me to 18-19 shots including challenging steel. I just reload twice and shoot as fast as I can see instead of stressing about whether I'll run out or not.

 

Apparently some people do, they are sure worried about 10 of minor vs 8 major (which percents out about the same as 20 vs 24 no?), but that wasn't your original point and you are now just sidestepping, but nice try.  And reloads still almost always take a small amount of time, and sometimes on the right stage can be a deciding factor in the outcome, but whatever

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45 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I think swapping a broken 45 for a working 9 is probably fine, but if I were the RM I'd at least think about whether there were shenanigans going on or not. Swapping a working 45 for 9 just because you went minor is definitely shenanigans.

 

Yep, but Nick still swapping from major to minor would constitute a competitive advantage even if the 45 broke

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2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Yep, but Nick still swapping from major to minor would constitute a competitive advantage even if the 45 broke

 

I said that if they had already gone minor, using a 10rd gun would be advantageous over continuing to use an 8rd gun. I don't think you can contest that this is the case.

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43 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

But you can be better than you were yesterday or last week, and get a higher percentage of the division winner, without having to create artificial special-olympics crap like classes. I throw any class trophies away (except for the national champion one, because that is at least funny, even tho it is a lame participation ribbon).

 

Wow, what if there was a handy class system to help track such things, oh wait.....

 

You are not the only person to throw away your class winning trophies, but accepting them and then brow beating people who also accept them (and are maybe even are proud of them) seems a little hypocritical and petty

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On 7/18/2019 at 10:18 AM, HoMiE said:

Was at an area match and guy shooting single stack sight broke on a .45 and He was allowed to use his backup gun in 9mm shooting minor. He just had to re-chrono. 

 

Then you quoted homie with this response

On 7/18/2019 at 1:13 PM, NickBlasta said:

 

Shrug, shouldn't have happened. It would be a competitive advantage to use the other gun.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

I said that if they had already gone minor, using a 10rd gun would be advantageous over continuing to use an 8rd gun. I don't think you can contest that this is the case.

 

Notice he said nothing about the gun going minor, just the the sight broke and notice your response.  Also there is nothing in the rules that says you can't fill your gun with minor ammo in SS should you fail chrono

 

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Just now, RJH said:

 

Then you quoted homie with this response

 

 

 

 

Notice he said nothing about the gun going minor, just the the sight broke and notice your response.  Also there is nothing in the rules that says you can't fill your gun with minor ammo in SS should you fail chrono

 

 

Read the OP. The context of the thread is going minor and gun switches. I thought I'd made that clear in subsequent posts, maybe now you're actually reading them.

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The original post was shooting a .40 as Major with 8 rounds, failing the chrono and asking if he could load his magazines to 10 rounds for the rest of the match. 

No mention of a gun swap in the original post. 

 

For the original question it appears legal to me, he would be shooting minor so he can load 10 rounds.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Read the OP. The context of the thread is going minor and gun switches. I thought I'd made that clear in subsequent posts, maybe now you're actually reading them.

The problem is I actually did read them all I just didn't read anything extra into them. It sure looked like there was two different conversations going on, one where there was a gun swap and one where there wasn't. Either way, the shooter would be legal the load to 10.

 

Also, you might want to recheck that OP. There's no mention of a gun swap in it. See, I actually do read everything

Edited by RJH

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8 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

The original post was shooting a .40 as Major with 8 rounds, failing the chrono and asking if he could load his magazines to 10 rounds for the rest of the match. 

No mention of a gun swap in the original post. 

 

For the original question it appears legal to me, he would be shooting minor so he can load 10 rounds.

Yep

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Sorry, I think I’m the one who introduced the gun swap mid-thread. Apologies for the de-rail.

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11 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

The original post was shooting a .40 as Major with 8 rounds, failing the chrono and asking if he could load his magazines to 10 rounds for the rest of the match. 

No mention of a gun swap in the original post. 

 

For the original question it appears legal to me, he would be shooting minor so he can load 10 rounds.

 

OP here. I have been following this thread and have found some of the points brought up to be very interesting, so thank you for all the responses. Just to clarify, this never happened to me. The reason I was wondering is that I don’t currently own a single stack gun (sacrilege, I know!), and I was wondering what caliber I would choose to get one in: 9mm, 40 s&w, or 45 acp. So the idea of picking 40 s&w seemed to be the most flexible, as that you could declare both minor or major power factor for a match (both from the PF standpoint, and also from magazine capacity).

 

So then it was just a theoretical question, thinking about a scenario where you could actually switch mid match. I was figuring that if one missed PF at chrono, that they wouldn’t have missed it by much (let’s say 164 PF), and then let’s say half of their stages were run with 8 in their mags. Therefore, switching to 10 for the remaining half of stages didn’t seem like a big deal to me, since they would be at a significant disadvantage compared to all other SS shooters for that specific match (assuming everyone else made their declared PF). I was not thinking about someone trying to game the system, or the advantage one would have if they hit the chrono earlier in the match before someone else. Mostly was thinking about the ability to somewhat salvage the match as much as possible. I will be really interested in the final ruling on this question.

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40 minutes ago, J_Allen said:

 

OP here. I have been following this thread and have found some of the points brought up to be very interesting, so thank you for all the responses. Just to clarify, this never happened to me. The reason I was wondering is that I don’t currently own a single stack gun (sacrilege, I know!), and I was wondering what caliber I would choose to get one in: 9mm, 40 s&w, or 45 acp. So the idea of picking 40 s&w seemed to be the most flexible, as that you could declare both minor or major power factor for a match (both from the PF standpoint, and also from magazine capacity).

 

So then it was just a theoretical question, thinking about a scenario where you could actually switch mid match. I was figuring that if one missed PF at chrono, that they wouldn’t have missed it by much (let’s say 164 PF), and then let’s say half of their stages were run with 8 in their mags. Therefore, switching to 10 for the remaining half of stages didn’t seem like a big deal to me, since they would be at a significant disadvantage compared to all other SS shooters for that specific match (assuming everyone else made their declared PF). I was not thinking about someone trying to game the system, or the advantage one would have if they hit the chrono earlier in the match before someone else. Mostly was thinking about the ability to somewhat salvage the match as much as possible. I will be really interested in the final ruling on this question.

 

Thanks for bringing it up. I think it’s an interesting question. I’ve always thought the minor/major conversation had interesting points with regard to advantages/disadvantages. 

 

Never really thought about it in SS but in LTD, since that is what I shoot. I own a couple of 2011s in .40 but I also own a few CZ Shadows for Production and CO. I’ve wondered how I’d fare shooting my production CZ with my CO mags in LTD minor. I have shot a few LTD classifiers w my production gun. In those instances, and on other short courses or standards, I don’t know that there is much of an advantage in shooting minor. 

 

 

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I've been pondering my original swing at this subject.

 

Range Masters must consider the ramifications of their decisions across the board, not just in a specific incident.

 

My original thought was going minor is a scoring issue, and nothing else. If shooter a benefits in anyway from the RM's decision, it is most likely at the expense of another shooter. That is why these things are important. This brings us to the question of is having your scores re-calculated to minor outweighed by the ability to load one or two extra rounds. As has been discussed already it depends a lot on when you find out you went minor.

 

Honestly, it's a tough call. Because I might be faced with this scenario in the future, I would like to get it right.

 

I belong to an RM discussion group, and even though we seldom are unanimous on anything, I'll bounce this off of them.

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Ok I've consulted and I was wrong in some of my initial thoughts on this

 

 In Single Stack, only if your power factor ever becomes minor, you are allowed to load a maximum of 10 rounds of ammo in legal magazines.

 

This should help clear things up.

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19 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Apparently some people do, they are sure worried about 10 of minor vs 8 major (which percents out about the same as 20 vs 24 no?),

 

that is a completely different topic. Like so completely different that I'm not sure you're seriously making the comparison. It's not really about percent, it's about the likelihood of having to do an unplanned standing reload, or almost as bad, having to shoot super slow and cautious on a steel array because you have no makeup shots. That's why people win area matches shooting ss minor, but people don't win area matches shooting limited minor.

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7 hours ago, J_Allen said:

 

OP here. I have been following this thread and have found some of the points brought up to be very interesting, so thank you for all the responses. Just to clarify, this never happened to me. The reason I was wondering is that I don’t currently own a single stack gun (sacrilege, I know!), and I was wondering what caliber I would choose to get one in: 9mm, 40 s&w, or 45 acp. So the idea of picking 40 s&w seemed to be the most flexible, as that you could declare both minor or major power factor for a match (both from the PF standpoint, and also from magazine capacity).

 

So then it was just a theoretical question, thinking about a scenario where you could actually switch mid match. I was figuring that if one missed PF at chrono, that they wouldn’t have missed it by much (let’s say 164 PF), and then let’s say half of their stages were run with 8 in their mags. Therefore, switching to 10 for the remaining half of stages didn’t seem like a big deal to me, since they would be at a significant disadvantage compared to all other SS shooters for that specific match (assuming everyone else made their declared PF). I was not thinking about someone trying to game the system, or the advantage one would have if they hit the chrono earlier in the match before someone else. Mostly was thinking about the ability to somewhat salvage the match as much as possible. I will be really interested in the final ruling on this question.

 

You are doing it wrong. the idea is not to have 1 gun that will do multiple things. Maybe your wife likes that idea, but grown men with jobs think it's dumb. the idea is to use any excuse you can think of to buy another new gun, or two.

 

Secondly, just don't go minor. It's not rocket surgery. I only know 1 person who has ever gone minor at a match, and we had told him many times he was cutting it too close.

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1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

Ok I've consulted and I was wrong in some of my initial thoughts on this

 

 In Single Stack, only if your power factor ever becomes minor, you are allowed to load a maximum of 10 rounds of ammo in legal magazines.

 

This should help clear things up.

 

It does seem reasonable in SS with .40. 

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4 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

 

It does seem reasonable in SS with .40. 

 

Also, you don't have to call me SIR😎

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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

You are doing it wrong. the idea is not to have 1 gun that will do multiple things. Maybe your wife likes that idea, but grown men with jobs think it's dumb. the idea is to use any excuse you can think of to buy another new gun, or two.

 

Secondly, just don't go minor. It's not rocket surgery. I only know 1 person who has ever gone minor at a match, and we had told him many times he was cutting it too close.

LOL! Yeah, I can always learn a thing or two from this forum.

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3 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

Ok I've consulted and I was wrong in some of my initial thoughts on this

 

 In Single Stack, only if your power factor ever becomes minor, you are allowed to load a maximum of 10 rounds of ammo in legal magazines.

 

This should help clear things up.

But does that include changing guns? That works for a 40. 45 shooter can't change to 10 round mags with the same gun. Is the 45 shooter allowed to change to his 9mm gun without his first gun breaking?

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4 minutes ago, MHicks said:

But does that include changing guns? That works for a 40. 45 shooter can't change to 10 round mags with the same gun. Is the 45 shooter allowed to change to his 9mm gun without his first gun breaking?

 

No. 5.1.7

 

 

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So make sure to knock the front sight off of the 45 on the next stage after going Minor.....

 

 

Or just DON’T GO MINOR

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