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Single stack missing major PF - load to ten?

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1 hour ago, NickBlasta said:

 

You can't, because when you switch guns your gun has to fit your declared division. You can't "switch to open" by trading your revolver for a limited gun. You would have to go open before your gun breaks.

 

So if I show up to a major to shoot my only revolver and it goes down, I can’t use my Limited as a backup even if I accept a bump to Open? That doesn’t seem fair.

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2 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 

So if I show up to a major to shoot my only revolver and it goes down, I can’t use my Limited as a backup even if I accept a bump to Open? That doesn’t seem fair.

 

You can... run it by the RM, he will say OK, or you get DQ’ed. 

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In IPSC, having 9 in a mag after the start signal when you are shooting Classic at Major PF gets you bumped to Classic at Minor PF, same as if you shoot 7 from a declared Major Revo, you go to Minor Revo.

 

The call is based on the new setup still being compliant for the same Division, as compared to other modifications and mag-count loads that are not same-division compliant.

 

The language of USPSA rule 6.2.5.1 would support this if anyone wanted to try it.

 

Quote

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of
fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, ...

 

Major/Minor's not a division.

 

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51 minutes ago, shred said:

In IPSC, having 9 in a mag after the start signal when you are shooting Classic at Major PF gets you bumped to Classic at Minor PF, same as if you shoot 7 from a declared Major Revo, you go to Minor Revo.

 

The call is based on the new setup still being compliant for the same Division, as compared to other modifications and mag-count loads that are not same-division compliant.

 

The language of USPSA rule 6.2.5.1 would support this if anyone wanted to try it.

 

 

Major/Minor's not a division.

 

 

I like it and agree.  Would be interesting to see it play out at a match.  My brain automatically lumped it with having 11 in a production mag after the start, but that is not really the case and  I believe you are correct, and the competitor being scored minor for the rest of the match is the right call.

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I think the reason that this thread is 4 pages instead of 2 posts is a misunderstanding of 5.1.7.2 .

 

"Competitive advantage" does not mean you picked gun "A" because it is sexier and more accurate (or whatever) than gun "B" after failing the chrono check.

 

It means an advantage over the other competitors who are already shooting the most sexiest gun they have and the same gun they started out with. 

 

If you could bump to major after throwing too many C's and D's, that would be a thing. 

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17 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Percentage-wise it is basically the same as my limited gun scenario listed a few post up, but no one seems to care about limited guns

 

Your limited example is a bad example and you have to know that. Limited minor is not competitive with Limited major so adding a couple rounds wont change anything. And in reality there are vary few (if any) guys shooting Limited major who bring a back up minor gun and enough 9mm and 40 to shoot the whole match.

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56 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Your limited example is a bad example and you have to know that. Limited minor is not competitive with Limited major so adding a couple rounds wont change anything. And in reality there are vary few (if any) guys shooting Limited major who bring a back up minor gun and enough 9mm and 40 to shoot the whole match.

They do if that's all they got, also I've won tight stages against better in limited when I was shooting minor simply because I didn't have to reload. So no it's not always a disadvantage, just generally. Kind of like in my opinion shooting minor in single stack.

 

 

Nothing goes to change the fact though, that if the gun is legal for the division, it should be allowed. And that is the actual gist of all of this BS. Have a good one

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27 minutes ago, RJH said:

They do if that's all they got, also I've won tight stages against better in limited when I was shooting minor simply because I didn't have to reload. So no it's not always a disadvantage, just generally. Kind of like in my opinion shooting minor in single stack.

 

 

Nothing goes to change the fact though, that if the gun is legal for the division, it should be allowed. And that is the actual gist of all of this BS. Have a good one

 

In that case I think the rules should be changed. If you try to shoot under powered ammo and get caught you should be punished for it. Gaining 2 rounds to offset the scoring advantage you lost isn't a punishment.  I say that as someone who shoots SS with a 40 both in major and minor.

 

I've certainly shot stages here and there where it wouldn't of mattered if I shot Limited minor.  But, I've never shot a match where it wouldn't of mattered.

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14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

In that case I think the rules should be changed. If you try to shoot under powered ammo and get caught you should be punished for it. Gaining 2 rounds to offset the scoring advantage you lost isn't a punishment.  I say that as someone who shoots SS with a 40 both in major and minor.

 

I've certainly shot stages here and there where it wouldn't of mattered if I shot Limited minor.  But, I've never shot a match where it wouldn't of mattered.

I can see the position of wanting a rule change, but right now the rules are what they are, whether any of us consider this rule or that rule fair or not 

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On 7/18/2019 at 9:18 AM, HoMiE said:

Was at an area match and guy shooting single stack sight broke on a .45 and He was allowed to use his backup gun in 9mm shooting minor. He just had to re-chrono. 

that's a totally different situation.  Nick is correct. if you try to switch a non-broken gun out to get a competitive advantage, the RM should say no. The whole idea of that rule so that people don't bring an entire quiver of guns to a match for different sorts of stages/targets and switch back and forth.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, RJH said:

They do if that's all they got, also I've won tight stages against better in limited when I was shooting minor simply because I didn't have to reload.

 

Probably not against good shooters tho. A reload literally takes zero time away from the shooting for a good shooter on almost any legal stage.

Edited by motosapiens

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23 hours ago, RJH said:

Okay, try this;

Two good Shooters are sandbagging and shooting in L10, shooter one loads 11 rounds on his second stage getting him a bump to open. Then he walks out to his car grabs is 170 mm mag for his limited gun, shoots the rest of the match with a 170 filled up and wins his class. Shooter 2 loads 11 rounds on his next to last stage and gets the same bump to open, but since he's shot most of the match with only 10 Rounds he sucks it up in open.

 

In my scenario and yours the penalties are the same for the two competitors, they just happen at different times in the match. So I guess the rule of thumb would be if you're going to cheat get caught early, it could be advantageous. 

 

haha, 'wins' his class....

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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

Probably not against good shooters tho. A reload literally takes zero time away from the shooting for a good shooter on almost any legal stage.

 

maybe not good, but better than me.  And a reload almost always takes some time on a legal stage, and sometimes on a very high hitfactor stage, enough time to lose the stage, if one shooter has to reload and the other doesn't.    If a reload literally took zero time, no one would give a crap about capacity, however everyone does, but whatever

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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

haha, 'wins' his class....

 

We can't all be world beaters......

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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

that's a totally different situation.  Nick is correct. if you try to switch a non-broken gun out to get a competitive advantage, the RM should say no. The whole idea of that rule so that people don't bring an entire quiver of guns to a match for different sorts of stages/targets and switch back and forth.

 

 

Actually if you read the whole exchange Nick starts off saying that, but then goes on to say that swapping a broken 45 for working 9 would be against the rules because 10 rounds is a competitive advantage, but it isn't

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I sent DNROI the question if a SS Major shooter goes minor can he load more than 8 yesterday, I will post the answer when I get it. 

 

Oddly most questions I ask get answered very quickly this one not so much, I also asked a RM but no answer there yet either,  so obviously we are all arguing because it is not as clear as we all think it should be.

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12 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I sent DNROI the question if a SS Major shooter goes minor can he load more than 8 yesterday, I will post the answer when I get it. 

 

Oddly most questions I ask get answered very quickly this one not so much, I also asked a RM but no answer there yet either,  so obviously we are all arguing because it is not as clear as we all think it should be.

 

Interested in hearing the response. 

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1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

I sent DNROI the question if a SS Major shooter goes minor can he load more than 8 yesterday, I will post the answer when I get it. 

 

Oddly most questions I ask get answered very quickly this one not so much, I also asked a RM but no answer there yet either,  so obviously we are all arguing because it is not as clear as we all think it should be.

 

If they follow the rule book, it would be allowed, but that don't always seem to happen haha. 

 

Serous question, have you found anything in the rule book to say it is illegal?  I haven't, but i haven't been looking too hard

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3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

that's a totally different situation.  Nick is correct. if you try to switch a non-broken gun out to get a competitive advantage, the RM should say no. The whole idea of that rule so that people don't bring an entire quiver of guns to a match for different sorts of stages/targets and switch back and forth.

Yeah, I don’t agree with swapping just for perceived advantages of more rounds. 

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Posted (edited)

Well I'm going to take a swing at this.

 

First I've never known of a shooter keeping his/her best gun in the bag and choosing to shoot an inferior gun.

 

Second if the gun isn't broken/unserviceable there can't be a gun change.

 

Third if they only went minor, they continue to shoot in the same condition that they fired the first shot.

 

Fourth, if their gun is broken/unserviceable and they change to a division compliant gun, then they can load to magazine capacity regardless of caliber with any appropriate reduction in scoring points.

 

When I wrote the rules for Single Stack I considered the 8 rounds major and the 10 rounds minor to be a wash. It put the deciding factor on the skill of the shooter.

 

 

Edited by Gary Stevens

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4 hours ago, RJH said:

  And a reload almost always takes some time on a legal stage, and sometimes on a very high hitfactor stage, enough time to lose the stage, if one shooter has to reload and the other doesn't.    If a reload literally took zero time, no one would give a crap about capacity, however everyone does, but whatever

 

No one actually does give a crap about the difference between 20 and 23 rounds, just saying.

 

It's worth testing tho. I'm by no means an elite shooter, but if I have to move more than 3-4 feet, I can do it in the same time with or without a reload. so I don't stress about stages where trying to do only 1 reload will push me to 18-19 shots including challenging steel. I just reload twice and shoot as fast as I can see instead of stressing about whether I'll run out or not.

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4 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

Actually if you read the whole exchange Nick starts off saying that, but then goes on to say that swapping a broken 45 for working 9 would be against the rules because 10 rounds is a competitive advantage, but it isn't

 

I think swapping a broken 45 for a working 9 is probably fine, but if I were the RM I'd at least think about whether there were shenanigans going on or not. Swapping a working 45 for 9 just because you went minor is definitely shenanigans.

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4 hours ago, RJH said:

 

We can't all be world beaters......

But you can be better than you were yesterday or last week, and get a higher percentage of the division winner, without having to create artificial special-olympics crap like classes. I throw any class trophies away (except for the national champion one, because that is at least funny, even tho it is a lame participation ribbon).

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34 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

Well I'm going to take a swing at this.

 

First I've never known of a shooter keeping his/her best gun in the bag and choosing to shoot an inferior gun.

 

Second if the gun isn't broken/unserviceable there can't be a gun change.

Is this in the rules?

 

34 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Third if they only went minor, they continue to shoot in the same condition that they fired the first shot.

Can you point me to the rule that says so?

 

34 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

Fourth, if their gun is broken/unserviceable and they change to a division compliant gun, then they can load to magazine capacity regardless of caliber with any appropriate reduction in scoring points.

I’m assuming you mean “magazine capacity” according to the division rules. 

 

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1 minute ago, Sdlrodeo said:

Is this in the rules?

 

Can you point me to the rule that says so?

 

I’m assuming you mean “magazine capacity” according to the division rules. 

 

 

The rule I can point you to is the RM has to approve the gun change. If I am the RM this is what I would do.

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