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Single stack missing major PF - load to ten?

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2 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

I’m not in favor of trying to make whole someone who broke a rule. I don’t get to reshoot  any of the stages if I fail chrono. We all draw cards and some start on a hard stage or an easy stage, it’s just the way the cookie crumbles I guess. 

I don't understand why this is hard for some to grasp 🙂

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Posted (edited)

Here's another hypothetical to get the juices flowing: Say I register and start the match with Revo minor. I fail chrono. My back up is a .40 Limited major gun. Can I re-chrono with the back up and shoot the rest of the match with Major scoring in Limited (or would I go to Open for no longer conforming to my division)? I assume all the stages I shot prior to chrono would go to zero.

Edited by Mcfoto

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3 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

Here's another hypothetical to get the juices flowing: Say I register and start the match with Revo minor. I fail chrono. My back up is a .40 Limited major gun. Can I re-chrono with the back up and shoot the rest of the match with Major scoring in Limited (or would I go to Open for no longer conforming to my division)? I assume all the stages I shot prior to chrono would go to zero.

You would probably have to go to open, since you signed up in revolver, though someone one might let you shoot limited.  Either way however, since you started declared minor, you will be shooting for no score, since you didn't make minor

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28 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

Here's another hypothetical to get the juices flowing: Say I register and start the match with Revo minor. I fail chrono. My back up is a .40 Limited major gun. Can I re-chrono with the back up and shoot the rest of the match with Major scoring in Limited (or would I go to Open for no longer conforming to my division)? I assume all the stages I shot prior to chrono would go to zero.

 

You get to shoot for no score. As such, I have no reason to keep you from shooting whatever gun you choose. 

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6 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Doubt it as "5.1.7.2 In using the substitute firearm the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage."  I'd think they would regard increasing capacity with a different gun that has not broken would be gaining a competitive advantage.  Now a good range lawyer "might" be able to sway the MD/RM that since it's minor vs major and IF the gun somehow was now broken?

It's a gamble and technically you would need to shoot a COF and have the original gun "break".

Now this is all in Level II and up, if it's aLevel I club match, you may be allowed.

 

I’d argue there is no competitive advantage switching from Major to Minor even with the higher capacity. If there was a competitive advantage the majority of the winners would shoot minor.

 

In LTD, there is no sub division due to PF for match standings. According to our rules, minor PF (with its lower recoil but higher capacity due to fitting more rounds in the same 140mm mag) competes equally against MajPF. 

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54 minutes ago, RJH said:

Okay, try this;

Two good Shooters are sandbagging and shooting in L10, shooter one loads 11 rounds on his second stage getting him a bump to open. Then he walks out to his car grabs is 170 mm mag for his limited gun, shoots the rest of the match with a 170 filled up and wins his class. Shooter 2 loads 11 rounds on his next to last stage and gets the same bump to open, but since he's shot most of the match with only 10 Rounds he sucks it up in open.

 

In my scenario and yours the penalties are the same for the two competitors, they just happen at different times in the match. So I guess the rule of thumb would be if you're going to cheat get caught early, it could be advantageous. 

the difference is both shooters have been bumped to open and are both very much diss advantaged in that division, in this case the shooters are still in their original division and the only difference is one went minor and revived a scoring disadvantage AND a capacity disadvantage and the other received a scoring disadvantage AND a offsetting capacity advantage, basically  putting him on equal footing to shooters that made their power factor deceleration from the get go. 

 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

Here's another hypothetical to get the juices flowing: Say I register and start the match with Revo minor. I fail chrono. My back up is a .40 Limited major gun. Can I re-chrono with the back up and shoot the rest of the match with Major scoring in Limited (or would I go to Open for no longer conforming to my division)? I assume all the stages I shot prior to chrono would go to zero.

start out minor stay minor 

start Revo use auto bump to Open

go sub minor ever shoot for no score

Edited by MikeBurgess

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21 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

the difference is both shooters have been bumped to open and are both very much diss advantaged in that division, in this case the shooters are still in their original division and the only difference is one went minor and revived a scoring disadvantage AND a capacity disadvantage and the other received a scoring disadvantage AND a offsetting capacity advantage, basically  putting him on equal footing to shooters that made their power factor deceleration from the get go. 

 

The problem with all your scenarios, is that the exact same thing you're saying for single stack would hold true with limited. If you're shooting limited major, go minor at Chrono, have your gun break, switch to your minor backup gun, and shoot the rest of the match, no one's going to complain, even though you just got a capacity advantage. The Limited gun and the single stack gun both gained about 20% capacity in Major versus minor. The main thing to learn here is if you're going to shoot major make sure your ammo is Major, and if you do go minor hope that you Chrono early so when your gun breaks you can switch to a minor gun.

 

Hell, if you were shooting something like a Glock in limited and went minor, I don't see any rule saying you couldn't throw a 9 mil Barrel in the gun and finish the match so you would at least have a capacity advantage. You wouldn't technically be changing guns. That would be pretty similar to going minor with the 40 in single stack, and neither gun breaking. Is there a rule against that? I can't remember one, but it might be there

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Also everyone keeps wanting to forget the punishment for chronoing minor is being scored minor, not losing capacity. The rules to my remembrance, just say minor gets to load to 10, and major eight. It says nothing about when or how

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10 minutes ago, RJH said:

Also everyone keeps wanting to forget the punishment for chronoing minor is being scored minor, not losing capacity. The rules to my remembrance, just say minor gets to load to 10, and major eight. It says nothing about when or how

so if I enter as Major and load 9 I get bumped to minor?

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13 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

so if I enter as Major and load 9 I get bumped to minor?

 

Open

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40 minutes ago, RJH said:

The problem with all your scenarios, is that the exact same thing you're saying for single stack would hold true with limited. If you're shooting limited major, go minor at Chrono, have your gun break, switch to your minor backup gun, and shoot the rest of the match, no one's going to complain, even though you just got a capacity advantage. The Limited gun and the single stack gun both gained about 20% capacity in Major versus minor. The main thing to learn here is if you're going to shoot major make sure your ammo is Major, and if you do go minor hope that you Chrono early so when your gun breaks you can switch to a minor gun.

 

Hell, if you were shooting something like a Glock in limited and went minor, I don't see any rule saying you couldn't throw a 9 mil Barrel in the gun and finish the match so you would at least have a capacity advantage. You wouldn't technically be changing guns. That would be pretty similar to going minor with the 40 in single stack, and neither gun breaking. Is there a rule against that? I can't remember one, but it might be there

Limited and SS are not the same, if I enter as limited major then bring my 9mm limited gun and shoot 23 round mags all day at chrono I get dropped to minor scoring, if I enter SS Major and start shooting with my 10 round 9mm minor gun I get moved to Open as soon as a RO counts to 10 without me being empty. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

start out minor stay minor 

start Revo use auto bump to Open

go sub minor ever shoot for no score

 

You can't, because when you switch guns your gun has to fit your declared division. You can't "switch to open" by trading your revolver for a limited gun. You would have to go open before your gun breaks.

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39 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

You can't, because when you switch guns your gun has to fit your declared division. You can't "switch to open" by trading your revolver for a limited gun. You would have to go open before your gun breaks.

 

I’m 100% sure that you’ll be moved to Open if you claim Revolver and shoot a Limited gun. 

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Limited and SS are not the same, if I enter as limited major then bring my 9mm limited gun and shoot 23 round mags all day at chrono I get dropped to minor scoring, if I enter SS Major and start shooting with my 10 round 9mm minor gun I get moved to Open as soon as a RO counts to 10 without me being empty. 

 

 

 

Soooo... maybe read the rules? Or sign up L10?

 

I failed to see how the rules are to be held accountable for a shooter not knowing how to count. 

Edited by HCH

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25 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

I’m 100% sure that you’ll be moved to Open if you claim Revolver and shoot a Limited gun. 

 

No, I mean, you can't. If you start out shooting a revolver anyway. The replacement gun has to also be revolver legal.

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1 hour ago, NickBlasta said:

 

You can't, because when you switch guns your gun has to fit your declared division. You can't "switch to open" by trading your revolver for a limited gun. You would have to go open before your gun breaks.

 

Not really:

 

Sign up revolver, revolver breaks, the only other gun you have is not a revolver, bump to open and continue with the match

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Just now, RJH said:

 

Not really:

 

Sign up revolver, revolver breaks, the only other gun you have is not a revolver, bump to open and continue with the match

 

5.1.7.1      The substitute firearm satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.

 

You have to be IN open already. The substitution isn't approvable if you aren't.

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26 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

No, I mean, you can't. If you start out shooting a revolver anyway. The replacement gun has to also be revolver legal.

 

I think we’re coming at this from two different directions. What I’m saying is, if you claim shoot your revolver for two stages, then say “screw wheelie guns” and then shoot stage 3 with your SV: welcome to Open

 

According to the rules, you can’t swap divisions, even if both guns are legal for said division ie. SS to Limited, revolver to Limited, Production to L10, etc. Either play in the division you signed up for, or go to Open/PCC. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

5.1.7.1      The substitute firearm satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.

 

You have to be IN open already. The substitution isn't approvable if you aren't.

 

So.... entered in revo>rev breaks>uses Open gun after “make Ready” on one stage>gets moved to open. 

 

 

This is not that complicated. In what world is shooting a revolver for any number of stages a “competitive advantage” in Open??

Edited by HCH

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1 minute ago, HCH said:

 

I think we’re coming at this from two different directions. What I’m saying is, if you claim shoot your revolver for two stages, then say “screw wheelie guns” and then shoot stage 3 with your SV: welcome to Open

 

According to the rules, you can’t swap divisions, even if both guns are legal for said division ie. SS to Limited, revolver to Limited, Production to L10, etc. Either play in the division you signed up for, or go to Open/PCC. 

 

No? That's a DQ.

 

5.1.8           A competitor who substitutes or significantly modifies a firearm during a match without the prior approval of the Range Master will be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6.

 

And if you seek approval, see my previous post.

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1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

Limited and SS are not the same, if I enter as limited major then bring my 9mm limited gun and shoot 23 round mags all day at chrono I get dropped to minor scoring, if I enter SS Major and start shooting with my 10 round 9mm minor gun I get moved to Open as soon as a RO counts to 10 without me being empty. 

 

 

 

 

So you do something dumb (or try to cheat) like load 9 when shooting major or not loading ammo to power factor and you are worried about someone else who tried to cheat or did something dumb, but got caught at a more opportune time of the match has a advantage over you now?  This makes no sense.  The rules are in the rule book, simple as that.  minor loads 10 major loads 8, and that is really all there is to it.  If you screw up and load too much ammo or not enough powder that is on you, but if you gun fits the division requirements, it doesn't have any competitive advantage and should be allowed, not subjected to "extra secret advantage specifications"  based on you opinion and not the rule book.  Did you ever find a rule to refute my argument?  I still haven't

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

No? That's a DQ.

 

5.1.8           A competitor who substitutes or significantly modifies a firearm during a match without the prior approval of the Range Master will be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6.

 

And if you seek approval, see my previous post.

 

6.2.5.1

 

and I will add, if there is ANY RM that would not allow me to finish a match, for score, in Open/PCC, I would not be returning. 

Edited by HCH

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1 minute ago, HCH said:

 

6.2.5.1

 

Yes. Which can apply in other circumstances, but not this one, because you were DQed for switching guns without permission. lol

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10 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

5.1.7.1      The substitute firearm satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.

 

You have to be IN open already. The substitution isn't approvable if you aren't.

 

There is nothing saying that the relevant division can't NOW be open. I guess the competitor could always tape a dot on his revolver......

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