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Single stack missing major PF - load to ten?

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9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

How about this....What it two shooters in SS go minor both are shooting 40 and have ten round mags. Shooter 1 starts a chrono, and shooter 2 finishes there. Shooter 1 gets to shoot the whole match with 10 round mags shooter 2 already shot the whole match with 8 round mags.

 

Does shooter 1 not gain a competitive advantage over shooter 1? What about all the guys who declared minor and made PF, now there on equal ground with the guy who failed to make his PF. Is that fair?

 

IMO if you declare major you should be forced to load 8 all day. If you switch to 10 you are gaining a advantage, by reducing the severity of the penalty for not making PF.

Show me a rule that says you can't change your mags mid-match, there may be one but I don't remember seeing it. Otherwise, the rules do safe you shoot minor you get 10 round of ammo. This would be a lot like having a production gun that was illegal for some reason, getting bumped to open, and not getting to load your mags up.. I'm pretty sure that's fine, but once again I may be wrong

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4 minutes ago, RJH said:

He's already at a huge disadvantage because he shot an eight round gun in every stage he's already shot. Are you going to follow him to his car to see what all guns he has? Otherwise how do you know he has another 8-round gun in his car? And how it going to a 10-round gun be any competitive Advantage after shooting several stages with an eight round gun that made minor, then his gun breaking, probably costing him a stage, then having to switch to a backup gun? Your ruling is clearly subjective, which leads to these issues, and yes I considered that he was going from an eight round gun to a 10-round gun. Also is there anything in the rules saying you can't change your mags mid-match? If so I haven't seen it, but I'm not saying for sure it ain't there

 

What would you consider a competitive advantage then? Because I could see arguing against something like a different set of grip panels or such being subjective, but a capacity advantage is pretty cut and dry.

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34 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

8 major vs 10 minor is allowed in division so the competitive advantage argument is moot. 

and at this point we are discussing 8 rounds of minor vs 10 rounds of minor, I can tell you for a fact that 10 rounds of minor is better than 8 rounds of minor.

 

if the question is just broke my 8 round major gun need to change to my 10 round minor gun then cool no competitive advantage.  but if you go minor with your 8 round gun then you are shooting 8 round minor so a change to 10 would be a big advantage. 

 

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2 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

What would you consider a competitive advantage then? Because I could see arguing against something like a different set of grip panels or such being subjective, but a capacity advantage is pretty cut and dry.

Mainly because the rules allow it, when you go to Chrono and you claim major, but don't make major the penalty is being scored minor. The penalty has nothing to do with magazine capacity, maybe this rule should be changed but that's the rule. Cuz I'm a little confused, I'm speaking specifically of someone shooting a 40, claiming major, but only making minor at Chrono, and then going ahead and loading his mags up. If there's a rule against that, please point it out to me. Because the way the rules are now the penalty seems to only be that you are now scored minor

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3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

and at this point we are discussing 8 rounds of minor vs 10 rounds of minor, I can tell you for a fact that 10 rounds of minor is better than 8 rounds of minor.

 

if the question is just broke my 8 round major gun need to change to my 10 round minor gun then cool no competitive advantage.  but if you go minor with your 8 round gun then you are shooting 8 round minor so a change to 10 would be a big advantage. 

 

 

So for you as well, can you point me to a rule that says if you're shooting a 40 as major, but only make minor at Chrono, you cannot load your mags to 10 Rounds. I haven't seen that rule, and if that rule is not in there, the catastrophic events of going minor, major gun breaking, having to switch to minor gun, and then someone telling you you have a competitive Advantage after all of that seems irrelevant.

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3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

So for you as well, can you point me to a rule that says if you're shooting a 40 as major, but only make minor at Chrono, you cannot load your mags to 10 Rounds. I haven't seen that rule, and if that rule is not in there, the catastrophic events of going minor, major gun breaking, having to switch to minor gun, and then someone telling you you have a competitive Advantage after all of that seems irrelevant.

 

That example would be fine. In the context of switching to guns with higher capacity it would not.

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Just now, NickBlasta said:

 

That example would be fine. In the context of switching to guns with higher capacity it would not.

Assuming gun A broke, and a guy has to go to his back up gun, if the gun fits the division and I'm the rangemaster, he's going to get to shoot. I'm of the firm belief that no legal gun is at any true advantage or disadvantage in the division it is legal in. And that is the problem with this rule. Because half the people are going to think the way you do and the other half are going to think the way I do. Subjectivity sucks for rules 🙂

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9 minutes ago, RJH said:

He's already at a huge disadvantage because he shot an eight round gun in every stage he's already shot. Are you going to follow him to his car to see what all guns he has? Otherwise how do you know he has another 8-round gun in his car? And how it going to a 10-round gun be any competitive Advantage after shooting several stages with an eight round gun that made minor, then his gun breaking, probably costing him a stage, then having to switch to a backup gun? Your ruling is clearly subjective, which leads to these issues, and yes I considered that he was going from an eight round gun to a 10-round gun. Also is there anything in the rules saying you can't change your mags mid-match? If so I haven't seen it, but I'm not saying for sure it ain't there

Is he? what stage did his gun break on? what did those stages look like? were they 6 reload 6 classifiers and some short courses then he went minor now facing several field courses where 10 rounds would be a big advantage?

 

 

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So here's an arbitrary list of things I came up with that can constitute an advantage:

 

 

Fiber optic sights, Magwell, bigger Magwell, 2 lb trigger, 5.4 inch gun, flat trigger, dished trigger, pin grip safety, left hand mag release, a gun that is on the cusp of not making weight, a match fitted Barrel, VZ Grips, flat mainspring housing, arched mainspring housing, etc etc.

 

So any RM that wants to not let a guy shoot a legal gun but want to be the arbitrator of all that is competitively advantageous, I want y'all to make sure that all of these things I listed are not any better on the backup gun that a shooter had to borrow

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In every other division by declaring the division I have agreed to the equipment restrictions of the division (action type, modifications, size, capacity, PF, sighting) if I break any of these restrictions I get moved to Open not the closes division I actually fit. With SS if I declare Major I have agreed to an 8 round capacity limit, if I load 9 I don't get bumped to Minor I get bumped to Open like any other division,  so using that logic, going sub major at chrono should not change my division declaration and if I load more than 8 I should get bumped to Open regardless of SS Minor being 10 rounds  

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6 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Is he? what stage did his gun break on? what did those stages look like? were they 6 reload 6 classifiers and some short courses then he went minor now facing several field courses where 10 rounds would be a big advantage?

 

 

If both guns are legal it actually doesn't matter. Anything else is just pushing your subjectivity. If the guns are legal the powers-that-be have already decided that one has no competitive advantage over the other.

 

 

If there's a noob shooting single stack, and he's shooting minor, but he only loaded 8 because he thought that was the rule in single stack, are you not going to allow him to switch to 10 Rounds halfway through the match? There's no rule against it, but I'd hate for him to have a competitive advantage......

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2 minutes ago, RJH said:

So here's an arbitrary list of things I came up with that can constitute an advantage:

 

 

Fiber optic sights, Magwell, bigger Magwell, 2 lb trigger, 5.4 inch gun, flat trigger, dished trigger, pin grip safety, left hand mag release, a gun that is on the cusp of not making weight, a match fitted Barrel, VZ Grips, flat mainspring housing, arched mainspring housing, etc etc.

 

So any RM that wants to not let a guy shoot a legal gun but want to be the arbitrator of all that is competitively advantageous, I want y'all to make sure that all of these things I listed are not any better on the backup gun that a shooter had to borrow

I have been told by a very good RMI that basically if its legal for the division the change should be approved,  the only thing they are really looking for is making sure shooters are not trying to use a golf bag of guns optimized for stages.  

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Just now, MikeBurgess said:

In every other division by declaring the division I have agreed to the equipment restrictions of the division (action type, modifications, size, capacity, PF, sighting) if I break any of these restrictions I get moved to Open not the closes division I actually fit. With SS if I declare Major I have agreed to an 8 round capacity limit, if I load 9 I don't get bumped to Minor I get bumped to Open like any other division,  so using that logic, going sub major at chrono should not change my division declaration and if I load more than 8 I should get bumped to Open regardless of SS Minor being 10 rounds  

Well, that depends on when you load that 9th round. If you do it after Chrono minor, it's okay. Also I don't know which kind of logic you're following. Going minor is the penalty. It's all in the rules, if you can find something in the rules to dispute what I'm saying point it out, I've been wrong before. But right now we're just going on what you feel and not what's an an actual rules

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I have been told by a very good RMI that basically if its legal for the division the change should be approved,  the only thing they are really looking for is making sure shooters are not trying to use a golf bag of guns optimized for stages.  

So what you're saying is, I was right all along 🙂

Edited by RJH

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1 minute ago, RJH said:

Well, that depends on when you load that 9th round. If you do it after Chrono minor, it's okay. Also I don't know which kind of logic you're following. Going minor is the penalty. It's all in the rules, if you can find something in the rules to dispute what I'm saying point it out, I've been wrong before. But right now we're just going on what you feel and not what's an an actual rules

so if I load 9 before chrono do I get a bump to Minor or Open? 

 

 

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Just now, RJH said:

So what you're saying is, I was right all along 🙂

not necessarily SS (and to a much smaller extent revo) have a different equation  

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12 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

so if I load 9 before chrono do I get a bump to Minor or Open? 

 

 

You're going to get the bump to open, just like loading 11 in production. Basically until Chrono we're going to trust what you say your power factor is and go with the rules accordingly. After Chrono, we're going to go with what the Chrono says and go with those rules accordingly. Do you have any rules to contradict what I just said?

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14 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I have been told by a very good RMI that basically if its legal for the division the change should be approved,  the only thing they are really looking for is making sure shooters are not trying to use a golf bag of guns optimized for stages.  

You can’t flip flop and shoot when 10 round minor is at an advantage to a stage and then go back to major. But if you’re shooting major and don’t pass chrono, there is no disadvantage to going to a 10 rd minor back up gun. 

 

Flip it the other way, if you shoot 10 rd minor in single stack and that gun broke and you had to had to go to back up gun which was 8 rd major, you’d still be shooting minor. The gun is still legal for division. 

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11 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

not necessarily SS (and to a much smaller extent revo) have a different equation  

Everything you're trying to point out for single stack is exactly the same in limited, but no one seems to have an issue there. My limited major gun holds 19, but my limited minor gun holds 23. If my major gun goes down and now I have to shoot minor, I'm going to obviously load it to 24, and finish the match. All the stages a shot with a lowly 20-round gun that are going to count as minor are just icing on the cake.

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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

How about this....What it two shooters in SS go minor both are shooting 40 and have ten round mags. Shooter 1 starts a chrono, and shooter 2 finishes there. Shooter 1 gets to shoot the whole match with 10 round mags shooter 2 already shot the whole match with 8 round mags.

 

Does shooter 1 not gain a competitive advantage over shooter 1? What about all the guys who declared minor and made PF, now there on equal ground with the guy who failed to make his PF. Is that fair?

 

IMO if you declare major you should be forced to load 8 all day. If you switch to 10 you are gaining a advantage, by reducing the severity of the penalty for not making PF.

Both declared major and didn’t pass so getting scored minor is in them. 

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11 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Both declared major and didn’t pass so getting scored minor is in them. 

but one got to shoot the whole match with 10 rounds and one had to use 8 rounds only under penalty of moving to Open, that is very different 

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32 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

Both declared major and didn’t pass so getting scored minor is in them. 

 

But the question is does one shooter have a competitive advantage? Clearly the answer is yes. 8 minor vs 10 minor is a pretty big deal.

 

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

but one got to shoot the whole match with 10 rounds and one had to use 8 rounds only under penalty of moving to Open, that is very different 

Okay, try this;

Two good Shooters are sandbagging and shooting in L10, shooter one loads 11 rounds on his second stage getting him a bump to open. Then he walks out to his car grabs is 170 mm mag for his limited gun, shoots the rest of the match with a 170 filled up and wins his class. Shooter 2 loads 11 rounds on his next to last stage and gets the same bump to open, but since he's shot most of the match with only 10 Rounds he sucks it up in open.

 

In my scenario and yours the penalties are the same for the two competitors, they just happen at different times in the match. So I guess the rule of thumb would be if you're going to cheat get caught early, it could be advantageous. 

Edited by RJH

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2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

But the question is does one shooter have a competitive advantage? Clearly the answer is yes. 8 minor vs 10 minor is a pretty big deal.

 

 

Percentage-wise it is basically the same as my limited gun scenario listed a few post up, but no one seems to care about limited guns

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26 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

but one got to shoot the whole match with 10 rounds and one had to use 8 rounds only under penalty of moving to Open, that is very different 

I’m not in favor of trying to make whole someone who broke a rule. I don’t get to reshoot  any of the stages if I fail chrono. We all draw cards and some start on a hard stage or an easy stage, it’s just the way the cookie crumbles I guess. 

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