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Masked

Need some Mark 7 revolution advice.

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Hey folks - Long time lurker - Been lurking since Mr. Enos made these forums, actually.

 

I'm about to start an ammunition manufacturing business in CT.

 

I'm basically making a MK262/M118LR/Mk248 and 300blk with military powders due to a contract I have. At about 30% less per round than Prime, Hornady or Black Hills.

 

Anywhoo.

 

I'm an instructor and one of LEO students heard I was opening a manufacturing business and suggested I look into Mark 7.

 

So, I googled, did my research and ended up with 2 on order for a grand total of 15k and change.

 

I'm trying to get boxed ammo out day 1 so, I have several brass suppliers. On working with one for a rather large order (10k+), he asked what presses I would be using - When I told him, I practically gave the guy a coronary. They're being sued, currently still, 2+ years later by Mark 7.

 

Well, as it normally goes, supplier 1 called supplier 2 who called supplier 3 who called my LOCAL guy.

 

I had 4 phone calls about how literally everyone is getting sued, apparently one of the top brass resellers in the country had to get their lawyer involved and blanked 2 of these guys.

 

It's a mess.

 

Then I expanded my google search to these very forums - Which is honestly where I should've looked in the first place.

 

Wow.

 

Now, is the Mark 7 Revolution an incredible machine? Absolutely.

 

Is the Mark 7 Revolutionary? Sure. Dan and Misty have talked it up to me for months.

 

Is the Mark 7 going to be reliable? From what I'm reading, no.

 

Now, the Dillon Super 1050 with the Ammobot can get me within my tolerances with a +0.1 powder deviation.

 

I've already decided that I need to cancel my orders and direct my energy towards actually getting ammunition out week 1 with dependable, reliable systems.

 

My question is about the long term.

 

Now that Lyman owns the company, do you all foresee them becoming a reliable product down the line? Are they actually fixing it now?

 

Everyone I've spoken to says no...But I'm on the fence.

 

Would it be worth cancelling 1 of my orders, grabbing 2 dillons and 1 revolution?

 

Thank you.

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Apologize as I have no answers to your questions, but I’m curious why Mark 7 would sue a brass supplier? 

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Posted (edited)

Uhhhh.  

 

I would suggest using brass suppliers that aren’t into slamming other businesses because of an already vested interest. 

 

The M7 is a solid press and has a learning curve just as the 1050 has. 

 

If you’re really into commercial reloading at a massive rate, you may want to look into an actual commercial machine. 

Edited by B_Seehawer

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Posted (edited)

I have 2 Camdex's - They're off by 0.4 on a good day.

 

Dillon 1050's have a +/- tolerance of 0.1 on a good day.

 

Where there's smoke there's fire.

 

Nobody attempted to push anything on me, I was given information that, once I knew where to look was easily found.

 

In fact, on calling my local Dillon suppliers and Camdex suppliers, I heard the same thing - I was met with a "We thought you knew".

 

Now...Slamming other businesses, okay that's one thing. Pointing out that 20+ lawsuits exist over "libel" because of a product not performing as guaranteed is quite another.

 

In fact their BBB ratings speak for themselves.

 

So you can understand, why, as someone that's about to get into manufacturing and as someone that has over 100k components on hand, would want a product that performs as advertised, guaranteed.

 

Right?

 

Or am I crazy?

 

I'd also like to note that Mark 7 is pushing this press for commercial use. I've been told the Revolution rivals my Camdex at 1/6th the cost.

 

So...Again, are they reliable or prone to failure? Everything I've read thus far says they're boxes of parts waiting for Mark 7/Lyman to catch up...

Edited by Masked
Clarified Mark 7's advertising to a business.

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IBTL

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I would say that you are gonna have hard time actually making quality ammo with ANY press vendor from day 1. All the machines seem to have some break-in period and learning curve. So don't plan your business on the assumption that you will be selling good stuff for a profit from day one.

 

My Mark 7 Evolution Pro has been quite reliable, now almost 150k loaded during less than a year. But I did also change the powder measure to a Dillon one since the original measure had too much variation, even dependent on the speed I ran it.

For a commercial operation I believe Mark 7 is the only cheap option since it has the onboard primer collator. That is a huge benefit as your press will just run and run, not stop and wait for you to fill the primers.

For just brass processing I would probably get Dillon and Ammobot.

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The Camdex's have 100hrs already, the Dillons have 50 on each - I anticipated having day 1 issues so, I've already been loading the ammunition.

 

I got brass processors from day 1 because the 2200's aren't available yet.

 

We have two military contracts and a couple contracts with other rifle manufacturers already so, day 1 production is a must; thus I anticipated headaches, so I was given permission to use my machines on a testing basis.

 

The Revolutions were pitched to me as being commercially viable, precision machines that can handle production runs of 1200+pieces/hr.

 

Now my issue is that, when you google the product and/or ask around, the Revolution is a disaster. When it runs right, it's awesome, but it rarely runs right.

 

I'm processing 7.62 LC - I REQUIRE a high end press. I REQUIRE an autodrive to handle the pressure evenly from sizing the brass before loading. I REQUIRE a solid machine that's not going to break down constantly.

 

The lawsuits - Again, google-able. The lack of reliability, google-able. The 3-4 month waits for parts, google-able.

 

I'm not attacking the company or defaming them - I'm a very soon to be commercial manufacturer that REQUIRES a functional product.

 

While I appreciate everyone attempting to give me business advice, I appreciate the concern, but my military contracts alone will keep me going 3-5 years.

 

I'm simply asking about the Revolution.

 

Is it a reliable product? Is it a quality product? What's the actual situation?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Masked said:

 

The Revolutions were pitched to me as being commercially viable, precision machines that can handle production runs of 1200+pieces/hr.

 

Now my issue is that, when you google the product and/or ask around, the Revolution is a disaster. When it runs right, it's awesome, but it rarely runs right.

 

I'm processing 7.62 LC - I REQUIRE a high end press. I REQUIRE an autodrive to handle the pressure evenly from sizing the brass before loading. I REQUIRE a solid machine that's not going to break down constantly.

...

I'm simply asking about the Revolution.

 

Is it a reliable product? Is it a quality product? What's the actual situation?

 

OK. I am a Revolution owner that just hit a year on the product. Not a commercial user though, I processed only about 60K of brass (decap, swage, resize) and loaded about the same (swage, resize, prime...) since I had it.

 

I run the machine at 3,500 rph setting for processing with no issues (I rollsize beforehand). I can run the machine at 3,000 rph setting but get issues with the bullet feeder a bit, so slow it down to 2,500 rph (effective rate of 2,300 due to dwell times etc.).

 

Now, being an early buyer I did have some issues in the beginning. The powder measure got replaced, the primer bowl as well (to reduce flipped primers) in addition to other adjustments. I even had Dan come to my place to tune the machine and train me in maintenance for a day. All of these issues should be resolved right now in units being shipped.

 

Doing 1,200+ rph should be no problem. There are several commercial users that use Revolutions.

 

The BIGGEST factor in producing quality ammo with the Revolution is the quality of the brass. If you preprocess your brass or buy processed brass then I would not expect any issues.

 

I ran a batch of 7,000 rounds last week (.40 S&W). The bullet sensor stopped the machine twice for upside down bullets, and I had 16 upside down primers. All passed case gauge (takes me longer to case gauge on a Hundo than actually make the rounds - lol). I checked powder every few hundred rounds and it was steady at 4.8 grains of N320.

 

Seeing that you want to make ammo on day ONE and a commercial operation I would arrange for Dan to come and set your machines up on day ONE. The time saving on the learning curve would pay off the cost in the long run.

 

PS. I am not a good enough shooter to be sponsored by Mark 7 and have no financial interest in the company. 

Edited by tanks

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I anticipated flying down there, assembling my machines with them and learning how to use them.

 

That being said, I'm still hearing there are issues, today.

 

Now, I'm not slinging mud, I'm not here to start a pissing match, I'm here for information.

 

I have 2 on order, that's $15,000.00 + training. That's A LOT OF MONEY.

 

I could literally get 6 Dillon 1050's with Autos for the same price.

 

So, I'm asking about reliability, service and precision.

 

I thank you very much for the reply.

 

Definitely something to think about.

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I can give you some insight on some of your issues. I manage a pretty decent sized ammunition and projectile company that’s been doing it for over 30 years. However, I’m not going to get into the details here. Shoot me a PM. 

 

Processing large quantities of rifle brass on 1050s is going to be trying. (100k doesn’t really fall into that category) 

 

Your Camdex should hold somewhat better than .4gr tolerance (depending on powder, and I assume you mean +/- .2?). Even still, in that category of machine, I like AmmoLoads much, much better than Camdex’s, and we don’t load rifle ammo on either one. 

 

Put a lot of thought into why you think you can produce quality ammo so much cheaper than the “other” guys. Assume the worst. Assume things are going to break, you are going to have growing pains, etc. Don’t devalue your time. 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Masked said:

I anticipated flying down there, assembling my machines with them and learning how to use them.

 

That being said, I'm still hearing there are issues, today.

 

 

I have heard that as well from one person on this forum, and there might be others. That being said I have not heard anything specific per se. Also, if you go down there, set up your machines and run them I doubt you will have issues when they get shipped to you. I would make sure you test every bit of the process and even get components shipped there so you can make rounds during your testing.

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Also, this is a great place for the recreational shooter and reloaded, but you aren’t going to get the kind of real information you need here. 

 

Your best bet is to form a few good relationships with people/companies that have been in the industry a long time, and been successful at it. The information and contacts  they will probably share, will be more valuable than 99% of what you can get here. (That’s not a Knock on these forums at all)

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6 minutes ago, tanks said:

 

 Also, if you go down there, set up your machines and run them I doubt you will have issues when they get shipped to you. I would make sure you test every bit of the process and even get components shipped there so you can make rounds during your testing.

 

There will ALWAYS be issues. From a commercial / business mindset, it’s naive to think otherwise. Learning how to work through them/ correct them/ learn from them effectively is the key. 

 

And yes, if you do decide to go that route, he is correct. Your machine run-offs and sign offs should be done in the EXACT same manner as you will be using them. Same components, speeds, quality checks, etc...

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1 minute ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

There will ALWAYS be issues. From a commercial / business mindset, it’s naive to think otherwise. Learning how to work through them/ correct them/ learn from them effectively is the key. 

 

When I said issues I meant out of spec parts of the presses, poor fit etc. that causes the machine not work properly. For example a not properly tuned primer bowl will cause a lot of upside down primers (I was at 5% in the beginning) but regular QA will not catch that as they do not make live ammo as part of the QA (as far as  was told). 

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1 minute ago, tanks said:

 

When I said issues I meant out of spec parts of the presses, poor fit etc. that causes the machine not work properly. For example a not properly tuned primer bowl will cause a lot of upside down primers 

 

And I mean that I’ve seen things like that on machines MUCH MUCH more expensive than an Mk7. 

 

Ive run-off &signed off on very expensive machines and when they got to the production floor, had to change parts, make adjustments, etc. Even just from the disassembly/assembly process from shipping. I’ve had these experiences in the ammunition industry, and also as an Engineer in other manufacturing industries. I would NEVER assume any piece of commercial manufacturing equipment will arrive at the plant and run 100% out of the gate.

 

 I know of specific instances in this industry in which  big companies basically rebuild new machines before they ever are released to production. 

 

Like I said. 

Part of the game will be learning to deal with bad parts, things out of adjustment, etc. 

 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, tanks said:

 

I have heard that as well from one person on this forum, and there might be others. 

 

That’s because you are on this forum. BE has many great qualities. Being a place that tolerates ruthlessly honest discussion about a vendor who has a defective product is not one of them.

 

Things get locked, and things get deleted, when things get gritty. This is a happy place where your zen headspace is never knocked askew. You’ve been around long enough that you should know this well.

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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21 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

That’s because you are on this forum. BE has many great qualities. Being a place that tolerates ruthlessly honest discussion about a vendor who has a defective product is not one of them.

 

Things get locked, and things get deleted, when things get gritty. This is a happy place where your zen headspace is never knocked askew. You’ve been around long enough that you should know this well.

 

 

So? I shouldn’t expect a fair answer even if it is a little gritty?

 

I’m not slandering the company nor leveling accusations - I’m asking if what I’ve read around is true and if they meet the muster.

 

This is what they were advertised to me as - Do they fit the bill?

 

Nothing more, nothing less.

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2 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

.... I would NEVER assume any piece of commercial manufacturing equipment will arrive at the plant and run 100% out of the gate.

 

 I know of specific instances in this industry in which  big companies basically rebuild new machines before they ever are released to production. 

 

Like I said. 

Part of the game will be learning to deal with bad parts, things out of adjustment, etc. 

 

 

I agree with the above. I own an engineering company (automation) and we will NOT sell some of our products without an installation and startup as well as a yearly maintenance contract where we visit clients once a month.  

 

That being said the Revolution is a pretty simple product to maintain. 

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2 hours ago, tanks said:

 

That being said the Revolution is a pretty simple product to maintain. 

 

To you and me. 

But I’ve learned not to assume much mechanical inclination. ;) 

 

That’s not a jab at the OP at all. Just how I initially approach these types of things. 

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One last thing on this matter. The OP mentioned about talking to brass processors. I would not get the Revo with the collator system and just buy primed brass. One last thing on the machine to worry about, and also that is the part of the system that takes the most amount of maintenance/tuning. Also, that would bring the cost of the system down a bit as well.

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