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2.1.8.5 and 9.9.3


waktasz

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Not according to what Southpaw says, and i think he is right . 9.9.3 does specify exposing targets, so if you had a clamshell with an open headshot and a stomp pad, it doesn't look like you would have to hit the stomp pad, since the target is exposed, you could just opt for the tougher shot.  Looks like in this scenario, no penalties would be applied.
A max trap with a minimum part of the highest shooting area showing as defined in the rules prior to activation is not a disappearing target. Thus it does not need to be activated.
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15 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

 

 

And disappearing targets only have to be activated if they are either moving targets or also appearing targets, otherwise 9.9.3 doesn't apply.  It's pretty rare to see one, but I've seen disappearing targets like these.

 

14 hours ago, RJH said:

 

are you saying if an activator causes something to move in front of the target?  

 

14 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

Yes, this.

 

13 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Interesting, kinda begs the question, if you can not use an activator to make a target disappear, then is it scored as a disappearing target?  I.e., if you miss the target but don't use an activator to make it "disappear" then are those no penalty mikes?  I truly have no idea, but if the target was considered available at if clear etc, i would have a hard time with a shooter getting NPMs, and don't know where the rule book falls on this

 

8 hours ago, broadside72 said:
13 hours ago, RJH said:
 
Interesting, kinda begs the question, if you can not use an activator to make a target disappear, then is it scored as a disappearing target?  I.e., if you miss the target but don't use an activator to make it "disappear" then are those no penalty mikes?  I truly have no idea, but if the target was considered available at if clear etc, i would have a hard time with a shooter getting NPMs, and don't know where the rule book falls on this

Failed to activate so 2M+FTSA per the rules. Same as we have been discussing. Like a max trap you didn't activate but shot at (hit or miss doesn't matter)

 

 

Read all that real well, cause it is kinda confusing, but i wanted to lump it together, cause I am not sure how much is getting lost.  

 

Broadside (and anyone else who wants to offer input), according to what Southpaw says that I am referencing, if an activator only covers an already exposed target, then you do not have to activate it, so 9.9.3 wouldn't apply, therefore no penalties would be given.

 

So if that is the case, and a target only sometimes disappears (depending on whether or not an activator is activated, and remember no penalties would apply if the activator is not activated), how the heck are mikes scored consistently on a sometimes disappearing target.  Sounds like a horrible stage design, but Southpaw said he has seen a stage like this.  If at the end of the stage, if the target is exposed and the score is alpha mike, I don't see how that would be  a NPM. If however, it was Alpha mike and the activator had been hit so the target had now been covered, you would score it Alpha NPM.  Seems inconsistent as hell

 

 

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Read all that real well, cause it is kinda confusing, but i wanted to lump it together, cause I am not sure how much is getting lost.  
 
Broadside (and anyone else who wants to offer input), according to what Southpaw says that I am referencing, if an activator only covers an already exposed target, then you do not have to activate it, so 9.9.3 wouldn't apply, therefore no penalties would be given.
 
So if that is the case, and a target only sometimes disappears (depending on whether or not an activator is activated, and remember no penalties would apply if the activator is not activated), how the heck are mikes scored consistently on a sometimes disappearing target.  Sounds like a horrible stage design, but Southpaw said he has seen a stage like this.  If at the end of the stage, if the target is exposed and the score is alpha mike, I don't see how that would be  a NPM. If however, it was Alpha mike and the activator had been hit so the target had now been covered, you would score it Alpha NPM.  Seems inconsistent as hell
 
 
When are you allowed to ignore an activator in the new rules?

I don't think you are. Failing to activate is 2M+FTSA whether you shot at the target or not, hit it or miss it, and whether or not it's disappearing or legally "visible" prior to activation.

So you need to activate it prior to last shot or you get dinged.

If it is "disappearing" (as defined by the rules) after it's activated (visible prior does not matter) then it's NPM if activated and you miss.

If it is not "disappearing" (as defined by rules) then mikes are mikes, activated or not.
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15 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

When are you allowed to ignore an activator in the new rules?

I don't think you are. Failing to activate is 2M+FTSA whether you shot at the target or not, hit it or miss it, and whether or not it's disappearing or legally "visible" prior to activation.

So you need to activate it prior to last shot or you get dinged.

If it is "disappearing" (as defined by the rules) after it's activated (visible prior does not matter) then it's NPM if activated and you miss.

If it is not "disappearing" (as defined by rules) then mikes are mikes, activated or not.

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire. This includes noshoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them. Penalties are based on number of shots required for the moving scoring target or the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot

 

 

 

If the scoring target doesn't move and the activator only covers an already exposed target, 9.9.3 doesn't say you have to use the activator in that situation.

 

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Disappearing target A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement.

 

Then i read this again, and it appears that NMPs would be assessed whether the activator was activated or not on a shooters run.  So, not inconsistent after all.

 

 

Edited by RJH
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9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire. This includes noshoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them. Penalties are based on number of shots required for the moving scoring target or the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot
 
 
 
If the scoring target doesn't move and the activator only covers an already exposed target, 9.9.3 doesn't say you have to use the activator in that situation.
 
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Disappearing target A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement.
 
Then i read this again, and it appears that NMPs would be assessed whether the activator was activated or not on a shooters run.  So, not inconsistent after all.
 
 
Exactly [emoji38]
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Yep, so there is the odd chance of not having to use an activator, but NMPs are always NPMs

Not sure where you'd never have to use an activator under the new rules. Even if it's in the open prior to activation and you shoot it in the open, you still need to activate it before last shot or it's 2M+FTSA regardless of your hits on it.

 

It is a moving target (even of the mover is no shoot) so it must be activated. Disappearing only matters if it's NPM or M after activation

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38 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

Not sure where you'd never have to use an activator under the new rules. Even if it's in the open prior to activation and you shoot it in the open, you still need to activate it before last shot or it's 2M+FTSA regardless of your hits on it.

 

It is a moving target (even of the mover is no shoot) so it must be activated. Disappearing only matters if it's NPM or M after activation

If the target was stationary, and the Mover was hardcover then you would not have to activate an activator. I thought the same as you and Southpaw pointed out that that was not always the case and as you read 993, that's appears to be the way it is

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On 7/12/2019 at 12:53 PM, waktasz said:

9.9.3 says moving targets have to be activated before the last shot and 2.1.8.5 says shoot em if you can see em.

 

How do these two work together? If there is a swinger that is somehow available at rest and you shoot it but never activate the movement do you get Mikes on it even though there are two hits on the paper?

 

 

Nothing can change a bad course.  If the COF has an activated target available for engagement before being activated it's a bad COF, unless there is a particular reason for it.  

Experienced stage designers and RO's will make sure the activated target is not available before activation.  If they don't and the WSB doesn't say it's a penalty  then you have a penalty if you don't activate the activator, but you can shoot the target first.  Have actually seen this but it wasn't the idea behind the COF.

If the WSB does say it's a penalty, it's a lazy and bad COF.  It puts the competitor in the position of having to watch for it and in our current "shoot 'em as we see 'em" rule book seems an unreasonable burden.

And in your example no mikes, but 1 procedural for not activating the activator.  

And you can't activate the activator after the ULSC command either.  Seems silly but you could shoot the target and step on the stomp pad and be good, just not after you ULSC.

There are also a few variations on the whole issue, but it just shouldn't come up if we pay attention.  If you want to use an activator make sure the target isn't available, not much different than being conscious of shoot throughs.

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I can visualize a few cases where hardcover as a mover in front of a stationary shooting target that is in the open at the start can happen.

It would only matter if the activator itself was a scoring target though and the scoring target intended to be covered is not available anywhere before the activator in a typical stage plan.

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So to maybe clear this up further (or more likely create MUCH more confusion 😀) it's important to note that APPEARING and DISAPPEARING targets are not the same.  You can have a target that's both appearing and disappearing, or one that's appearing, but not disappearing, or also one that's disappearing, but not appearing 🙃.

 

9.9.3 applies only to 1) moving scoring targets, or 2) appearing targets.  Seems even NROI gets confused on this as the "question of the month" on the NROI site should really say "appearing target", and could have 2 potential correct answers with how it's worded right now 🤔

 

12 hours ago, broadside72 said:

A max trap with a minimum part of the highest shooting area showing as defined in the rules prior to activation is not a disappearing  appearing target. Thus it does not need to be activated.

 

Fixed it for you 😉.  Also, the minimum A zone requirements only apply to disappearing targets, not appearing targets.  So technically you could have some kind of max trap setup where before activation only the D zone of the scoring target behind the no shoot is visible and you still wouldn't ever have to activate it, you could just shoot at the D zone.  Not sure why you would though unless the stomp pad is way off in another position that you otherwise wouldn't have to go to.  I've never seen a setup like this, sounds weird, but technically it could exist 😀

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On 7/12/2019 at 1:16 PM, waktasz said:

 

There are a few scenarios I've seen where you'd do that. At area 7, three or four years ago you had to run outside the shooting area and pull a lever to activate a drop turner. There's no way it was worth it to do all that for a possible 10 points so everyone I saw shot the whole stage then walked all the way back to the start to pull the lever

 

It seems to even apply to disappearing targets. I was going to ignore the activator rope for a disappearing target at A1 this year, but then I thought about it, and then I checked with the RM, and confirmed that I needed to activate the target even if I didn't want to shoot it. Definitely changes the math a bit for disappearing targets.

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6 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Nothing can change a bad course.  If the COF has an activated target available for engagement before being activated it's a bad COF, unless there is a particular reason for it.  

Experienced stage designers and RO's will make sure the activated target is not available before activation.  If they don't and the WSB doesn't say it's a penalty  then you have a penalty if you don't activate the activator, but you can shoot the target first.  Have actually seen this but it wasn't the idea behind the COF.

If the WSB does say it's a penalty, it's a lazy and bad COF.  It puts the competitor in the position of having to watch for it and in our current "shoot 'em as we see 'em" rule book seems an unreasonable burden.

And in your example no mikes, but 1 procedural for not activating the activator.  

And you can't activate the activator after the ULSC command either.  Seems silly but you could shoot the target and step on the stomp pad and be good, just not after you ULSC.

There are also a few variations on the whole issue, but it just shouldn't come up if we pay attention.  If you want to use an activator make sure the target isn't available, not much different than being conscious of shoot throughs.

 

Well yea, but it still happens. Also at Area 7 there was a swinger that was hidden behind no shoots, but you could shoot it on a tough angle from another position without having to open the port that starts the movement. We all shot it that way and then walked to open the port that starts the swinger and the ROs just asked us not to do that because it wasted so much time. 

 

I don't know what rule explains getting one procedural for doing what I originally asked though. 

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15 hours ago, broadside72 said:
15 hours ago, RJH said:
 
 
Not according to what Southpaw says, and i think he is right . 9.9.3 does specify exposing targets, so if you had a clamshell with an open headshot and a stomp pad, it doesn't look like you would have to hit the stomp pad, since the target is exposed, you could just opt for the tougher shot.  Looks like in this scenario, no penalties would be applied.

A max trap with a minimum part of the highest shooting area showing as defined in the rules prior to activation is not a disappearing target. Thus it does not need to be activated.

......as they may appear....

sorry my friend (rule book) is not near by but a rule around 2.1.4 helps clarify the max-trap discussion. Pretty much if you can see it you can shoot it. 

Max-traps type situations where at least 50% (I think that’s the correct percentage) of the A zone is visually available null and voids the disappearing target rules. Stage designers use this to force shooting at a challenging shooting solutions. 

Two separate and different situations.  I agree. No activation is needed on exposing targets. 

Edited by pjb45
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On 7/13/2019 at 11:33 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If I understand you correctly you are saying it is not weird to give penalty mikes on a disappearing target.

 

I don't have a dog in the fight I just think it is something that you might need to be able to explain to a shooter one day, and I could see folks mistakenly giving the NPM and no FTSA out of habit.

 

Easiest way o remember it might be just 

 

 

Disappearing targets have Activation, NPM and  FTSA rules.

You don’t understand correctly. 

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7 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Disappearing targets have Activation, NPM and  FTSA rules.

You don’t understand correctly. 

 

7 hours ago, pjb45 said:

.sorry my friend (rule book) is not near by 

 

Clear now. 

 

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17 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

 

 

17 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:
 

Seems silly but you could shoot the target and step on the stomp pad and be good, just not after you ULSC. fire your last shot.

Re-read the rule you are correct 

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them. Penalties are based on number of shots required for the moving scoring target or the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

 

Edited by pskys2
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On 7/13/2019 at 5:25 AM, OPENB said:

I think the intent of the rule was to give those penalties, assuming the target had never been shot at all, because making the mover visible before activation is just lazy course design. But agreed, the wording says 2 mikes, 1 FTSA

 

If it never appeared at all, why would you need to add the penalties?  There wouldn’t be any holes in the target. 

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12 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

Well yea, but it still happens. Also at Area 7 there was a swinger that was hidden behind no shoots, but you could shoot it on a tough angle from another position without having to open the port that starts the movement. We all shot it that way and then walked to open the port that starts the swinger and the ROs just asked us not to do that because it wasted so much time. 

 

I don't know what rule explains getting one procedural for doing what I originally asked though. 

I agree and it's a result of not being thorough in the set up, it happens and I'm guilty of doing it also. 

 

With the new wording, and actually reading the whole section,  in 9.9.3 I see the Level I exception but at Level II and up it looks as if the A7 COF  would be currently penalized a Procedural + 2 mikes unless a shot was fired after activating  the activator.  The RO should have given penalties and not asked shooters to stop wasting time (I assume the time wasted was the reset time as scoring time had ceased?) or realized the error and had the issue resolved with re-shoots or tossing the stage if necessary.

 

Area III had a habit of giving competitors a 2nd chance at activated targets from a different position, always after time consuming movement. 

My guess is the wording was changed due to A3 type stages.

 

In your OP as long as the activator was activated before the last shot, there is no penalty, excepting the LI exemption.  The 9.9.3 rule would override the 2.1.8.5 rule as it deals with a specific subset of target and the procedural issues of activating a prop.  Now 9.9.3 deals with shoot and no shoot activated targets, what of an activator opening a shoot port to expose a target, but is seen at another position?  I'd say no penalties in that case.

 

What muddies the water more is a target that disappears usually incurs a NPM, but if the target is visible at another point it isn't disappearing and if it is in the program as such the COF needs changed and re-shot or tossed.  Or the scoring program changed and then probably re-shot also.

 

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them. Penalties are based on number of shots required for the moving scoring target or the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

Edited by pskys2
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I'm surprised that this discussion is still going. I thought 9.3.3 is clear and 9.9.2 says that disappearing targets are subject to 9.9.3.

 

36 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

 

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement before the last shot is fired in a course of fire. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them. Penalties are based on number of shots required for the moving scoring target or the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

 

 

9.9.2 says "Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies." 

 

There is no exception for non-disappearing targets. This sums it up. 

On 7/14/2019 at 9:05 AM, broadside72 said:

When are you allowed to ignore an activator in the new rules?
I don't think you are. Failing to activate is 2M+FTSA whether you shot at the target or not, hit it or miss it, and whether or not it's disappearing or legally "visible" prior to activation.
So you need to activate it prior to last shot or you get dinged.
If it is "disappearing" (as defined by the rules) after it's activated (visible prior does not matter) then it's NPM if activated and you miss.
If it is not "disappearing" (as defined by rules) then mikes are mikes, activated or not.

 

There was a mention of moving hardcover. But moving hardcover would have to be a steel plate. otherwise a shoot through on the hard cover would be a range equipment failure. Not sure how to make that work, but I would include it in 9.9.3 because it seems to be in the spirit of the rule. To paraphrase "all activators must be activated before the last shot."

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32 minutes ago, David.Hylton said:

 

There was a mention of moving hardcover. But moving hardcover would have to be a steel plate. otherwise a shoot through on the hard cover would be a range equipment failure. Not sure how to make that work, but I would include it in 9.9.3 because it seems to be in the spirit of the rule. To paraphrase "all activators must be activated before the last shot."

 

This whole paragraph is wrong

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