IPSC Rule 10.2.8

[d_striker]

IPSC Rulebook

 

10.2.8 If a course of fire (or part thereof) stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence of touching the handgun (or scooping it from a table etc.) with the other hand after the Start Signal (or from the point where single hand shooting has been stipulated). Exceptions are releasing an external safety (without scooping), reloading or correcting a malfunction. However, the procedural penalty will be applied on a "per shot fired" basis when a competitor uses the other hand or arm to:

 

10.2.8.1 support the handgun or the stipulated wrist, hand or arm while firing shots; 10.2.8.2 increase stability on the ground, a barricade or another prop while firing shots.

10.2.8.2 increase stability on the ground, a barricade or another prop while firing shots

 

If gun starts loaded on table and the entire stage is to be shot WHO, is it allowable to use strong hand to adjust grip after picking it up in the weak hand?

[MikeBurgess]

12 minutes ago, d_striker said:

IPSC Rulebook

 

10.2.8 If a course of fire (or part thereof) stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence of touching the handgun (or scooping it from a table etc.) with the other hand after the Start Signal (or from the point where single hand shooting has been stipulated). Exceptions are releasing an external safety (without scooping), reloading or correcting a malfunction. However, the procedural penalty will be applied on a "per shot fired" basis when a competitor uses the other hand or arm to:

 

10.2.8.1 support the handgun or the stipulated wrist, hand or arm while firing shots; 10.2.8.2 increase stability on the ground, a barricade or another prop while firing shots.

10.2.8.2 increase stability on the ground, a barricade or another prop while firing shots

 

If gun starts loaded on table and the entire stage is to be shot WHO, is it allowable to use strong hand to adjust grip after picking it up in the weak hand?

I'm going to say using the other hand to adjust your grip, assuming that involves touching the gun, would result in a procedural.  The rule seems pretty clear on that (and very different from the USPSA version) if your grip is truly horrific, perhaps gaming the system by racking a round out as if there was a malfunction would be enough to avoid the procedural. 

[rowdyb]

so stage 13 at ipsc nats this weekend better not switch to your normal hand for the reload and then switch it back again.

[davsco]

wow that's a pretty onerous rule.

 

rowdy, doesn't it show an exception for reloading?  maybe that's also a gamer way to improve your grip?

[d_striker]

5 hours ago, rowdyb said:

so stage 13 at ipsc nats this weekend better not switch to your normal hand for the reload and then switch it back again.

 

Rule states there is an exception for reloading or correcting a malfunction. 

[rowdyb]

Yes. I was trying to be goofy about how it could be taken to an extreme from just reading the above only.

[Matt1]

The latest debate is whether you can hold a mag in your weak hand while you shoot with your strong hand.


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[race1911]

3 hours ago, Matt1 said:

The latest debate is whether you can hold a mag in your weak hand while you shoot with your strong hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

According to most it would be allowed as the new rules only give procedural(s) for supporting the gun or nominated hand, or increasing stability on the ground; therefore if you grabbed a mag off your belt with the "other" hand while using the nominated hand to draw/and or shoot then it seems OK.....others argue that the exceptions for using the "other" than nominated hand include reloading and the specific definition is in the Rule Book Glossary as:  "reloading commences when the magazine (or cylinder) release button is activated" and thus should incur procedural(s) (possibly by Rulebook, by definition, or not following WSB).............SO, your best bet would be to clear it up with the RO/CRO/RangeMaster beforehand to avoid the possibility of any procedural(s)

Edited July 12, 2019 by race1911

[pskys2]

First glance Yes 1 procedural for touching.  Now if you arbitrate, claiming it was a "Safety Issue" you may win.  

If you switch hands to reload may have the same results.  Unless the match officials have already decided to NOT penalize for those.

 

There may be rulings that clarify it or expect a further clarification next year!

 

 

[bret]

20 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

First glance Yes 1 procedural for touching.  Now if you arbitrate, claiming it was a "Safety Issue" you may win.  

If you switch hands to reload may have the same results.  Unless the match officials have already decided to NOT penalize for those.

 

There may be rulings that clarify it or expect a further clarification next year!

 

 

WSB says

Engage all targets WHO.

 

It isn't hard, do whatever you want as long as you engage (shoot at) targets with WHO.

 

WSB doesn't say you have to pick the gun up with your WHO, only engage targets WHO.

 

I would arbitrate any procedural given for touching the gun with string hand to pick up the gun, reload, clear a malfunction.

 

If you want to give someone a procedural for touching the gun with your strong hand, how are they going to unload and show clear? 

 

Make them do it WHO?

 

What about Holatering after if clear hammer down? 

 

Do they have to holster WHO?

 

Remember the course of fire starts at make ready and end at range is clear. 

[bret]

17 hours ago, rowdyb said:

so stage 13 at ipsc nats this weekend better not switch to your normal hand for the reload and then switch it back again.

 it says is engage all targets weak hand only.

 

How is a single stack shooter or revolver going the shoot this stage without touching their gun with their strong hand after the start signal?

 

How are all shooters going to ULSC and Holster with just their weak hand?

Edited July 12, 2019 by bret

[CHA-LEE]

This is what makes IPSC matches not so fun..........

[perttime]

23 hours ago, bret said:

 it says is engage all targets weak hand only.

 

How is a single stack shooter or revolver going the shoot this stage without touching their gun with their strong hand after the start signal?

 

How are all shooters going to ULSC and Holster with just their weak hand?

 

Quote from the rule:

Exceptions are releasing an external safety (without scooping), reloading or correcting a malfunction.

 

ULSC, etc, isn't "engaging targets".

Edited July 13, 2019 by perttime

[Kiwishoot]

On 7/13/2019 at 3:41 AM, bret said:

WSB says

Engage all targets WHO.

 

It isn't hard, do whatever you want as long as you engage (shoot at) targets with WHO.

 

WSB doesn't say you have to pick the gun up with your WHO, only engage targets WHO.

 

I would arbitrate any procedural given for touching the gun with string hand to pick up the gun, reload, clear a malfunction.

 

If you want to give someone a procedural for touching the gun with your strong hand, how are they going to unload and show clear? 

 

Make them do it WHO?

 

What about Holatering after if clear hammer down? 

 

Do they have to holster WHO?

 

 

IPSC rules are pretty blanket, so in answer to your questions :
* you will lose arbitration if you wanted to argue over picking up the firearm with your strong hand, 10.2.8 does specifically state "for each occurrence of touching the handgun (or scooping it from a table etc.) with the other hand after the Start Signal"
* ULSC is not engaging the targets so you can use both hands (8.3.6 if you have finished ULSC)
* holstering is not engaging the target, besides 8.3.7 specifically covers if clear, hammer down, holster - engaging a target after this command is a no no
* remember the course of fire ends after the hand is clear of the holstered pistol (8.3.7.3)
* shooting with a magazine is your other hand is fine as long as you don't gain any stability from it (key word is stability from 10.2.8.2, so holding onto a door you've just opened with your strong  could be interpreted as gaining stability, just holding a mag would be a tough call as having seen some stages that have all mags on the table means grabbing one and shooting one handed is perfectly fine). Of course walking through the stage with a magazine in your hand is a no no (8.7.2)

Hope this helps  

[shred]

At the IPSC Nats match, the WSB specifically said something like "Pick up firearm with WEAK HAND ONLY and engage..." as a reminder to the USPSA shooters used to scooping.

 

They did not penalize switching hands to reload.

 

 

[Bonfa]

On 7/12/2019 at 5:14 PM, race1911 said:

According to most it would be allowed as the new rules only give procedural(s) for supporting the gun or nominated hand, or increasing stability on the ground; therefore if you grabbed a mag off your belt with the "other" hand while using the nominated hand to draw/and or shoot then it seems OK.....others argue that the exceptions for using the "other" than nominated hand include reloading and the specific definition is in the Rule Book Glossary as:  "reloading commences when the magazine (or cylinder) release button is activated" and thus should incur procedural(s) (possibly by Rulebook, by definition, or not following WSB).............SO, your best bet would be to clear it up with the RO/CRO/RangeMaster beforehand to avoid the possibility of any procedural(s)

 

Thanks for recalling the definition of reloading start: at activation of the button.
This changed my perspective about a procedural I got last week, whereby in order to reload, i transferred the gun from WH to SH, used SH to activate magazine release, inserted magazine with WH, re-transferred gun from SH to WH.
Remembering the rule of the OP, I thought it was ok to transfer the gun to reload, but technically in doing so i held the gun in SH a fraction of time before activating the button. Fair enough, kudos to the RO.
However I have now to figure out how to reload in such a scenario, as I cannot safely hold the gun and hit the release with WH only. What's right here? Slide SH thumb under WH palm hoping the RO will not object the inevitable touching of the handle??

[race1911]

Bonfa....still a strange call you don't hear done on a WH only stage......I have seen at least several dozen or more shooters  (including myself) change to strong hand and then do a reload and never once has a procedural been called (without hitting the mag release with the WH first).....NOTE: Shred post just above yours says it was allowed at US IPSC Nationals last week

Edited July 22, 2019 by race1911

[Bonfa]

2 hours ago, race1911 said:

Bonfa....still a strange call you don't hear done on a WH only stage......I have seen at least several dozen or more shooters  (including myself) change to strong hand and then do a reload and never once has a procedural been called (without hitting the mag release with the WH first).....NOTE: Shred post just above yours says it was allowed at US IPSC Nationals last week

 

Well yeah I was not thrilled to get a penalty, but did not challenge that decision as I could not quote the rule by heart. Actually when I read 10.2.8 at home , I though the RO did not apply the rule correctly, as the transfer to SH was part of the reloading process, which is specifically listed as an exception. But then you quoted the glossary, and after that, while  the call may have been strict, I cannot say it was a wrong one. Having said that, if this became a universal interpretation, I think you'd see strange manipulations, and ultimately some (very likely loaded) guns will get dropped.
Perhaps WH>SH hand transfer should be more precisely described either in the rule, or in the glossary...

...and this was no Nationals ;), just a level 2 in a European region... 

[Kiwishoot]

My 2c worth - wrong call.  Starting the unloading process of trying to hit the mag release button weak hand is encouraging unsafe gun handling. And I have never seen it called as a procedural at any level match.

 

They're interpreting 10.2.8 incorrectly (Exceptions are releasing an external safety (without scooping), reloading or correcting a malfunction).

Edited July 24, 2019 by Kiwishoot
speeling bad

[Sako92S]

On 7/12/2019 at 12:51 AM, d_striker said:

 

If gun starts loaded on table and the entire stage is to be shot WHO, is it allowable to use strong hand to adjust grip after picking it up in the weak hand?

No.

If you do you will get 1 procedural penalty.

[pjb45]

On 7/24/2019 at 1:12 AM, Kiwishoot said:

My 2c worth - wrong call.  Starting the unloading process of trying to hit the mag release button weak hand is encouraging unsafe gun handling. And I have never seen it called as a procedural at any level match.

 

They're interpreting 10.2.8 incorrectly (Exceptions are releasing an external safety (without scooping), reloading or correcting a malfunction).

We had a left handed shooter who would safely hit the  mag release with his left hand index finger.  I know because he showed me how to WHO reload without switching hands. He is also a CRO.  Not unsafe gun handling, just another gun manipulation skill to be acquired.