Heavy/He-Man

[HCH]

Why aren’t they more popular? Is it driven by cost? Difficulty? Prize tables that are weighted towards other divisions?

 

I don’t think cost is a big problem, as you typically shoot half the ammo. What’s your opinion?

[Rookie]

What assumptions are used in your claim that "...you typically shoot half the ammo...".  I shoot in the Heavy Metal/He-Man divisions several matches a year... but I don't shoot matches where HM competitors have a lower '"minimum" round count per the stage design (relative to limited, tactical or open).

[Dan Sierpina]

Not all matches allow "1 anywhere", in fact darn few still do. Cost may be the biggest issue for most people. Some rule sets require a pump and a .45ACP, not many people want to add those to the gun safe, it seems. 

How many matches are not in bays? That's a factor too, heavy guns beg for natural terrain. At least the .308 does.

 

[HCH]

Every match I’ve shot has allowed 1 anywhere with the rifle. Pistols depend on what rule set the match ran. 

 

Some are “heavy tac” in which you can shoot 9mm and an auto shotgun (I kind of like this, as 10 round mags in the 45 get cumbersome), and some are he-man. The lack of a solid division requirement seems like the biggest problem to me. 

 

The only one one that comes to mind that I have attended that required two rounds was RM3G. 

[Dan Sierpina]

18 minutes ago, HCH said:

Every match I’ve shot has allowed 1 anywhere with the rifle. Pistols depend on what rule set the match ran. 

 

Some are “heavy tac” in which you can shoot 9mm and an auto shotgun (I kind of like this, as 10 round mags in the 45 get cumbersome), and some are he-man. The lack of a solid division requirement seems like the biggest problem to me. 

 

The only one one that comes to mind that I have attended that required two rounds was RM3G. 

You haven't shot Rocky Mountain or He Man Nationals, have you? 1 A is good with rifle or pistol, or 2 anywhere for those matches.

[HCH]

9 minutes ago, Dan Sierpina said:

You haven't shot Rocky Mountain or He Man Nationals, have you? 1 A is good with rifle or pistol, or 2 anywhere for those matches.

 

Reading comprehension lacking this morning?

[Dan Sierpina]

6 hours ago, HCH said:

 

Reading comprehension lacking this morning?

Not enough coffee.

 

[kurtm]

I'll tell you what killed he-man was iron sights. No one shoots iron sights any longer. We made it iron sights because there really is no good way to scope many of the 308 combat rifles and we didn't want it to become an AR-10 only class for all intents and purposes. At the time the only reliable AR-10 was the SR-25....EXPENSIVE! Any way as more folks got into 3-Gun they didn't come from an iron sight background. So less and less shot it, same with limited. I allowed red dots into limited and it caught on and sort of saved the division, but who really wanted to shoot a red dot on a 308..... And we were right back to AR-10 only as it is just as hard to put a red dot on say an M-14/FAL/HK-91 etc. as it is a scope. Yuck !!!!

 

Think I'm wrong? IPSC world rifle championships are coming up, we have like 47 Americans going, we have an open team, an open senior team, we have a ladies open team, we have a bunch of individuals in open and open lady, both senior and younger, we have super senior open shooters, BUT!! We only have 4 guys who are shooting limited/standard. Overseas limited is irons only. All 4 make up the U.S. team in standard. We don't have ANY Individuals in standard and our U.S. standard team is made up of 2 super seniors(60 and older) 1 senior (50 and older) and one line younger guy who is now stuck with the old geezers. Yep irons baby!

[HCH]

1 hour ago, kurtm said:

I'll tell you what killed he-man was iron sights. No one shoots iron sights any longer. We made it iron sights because there really is no good way to scope many of the 308 combat rifles and we didn't want it to become an AR-10 only class for all intents and purposes. At the time the only reliable AR-10 was the SR-25....EXPENSIVE! Any way as more folks got into 3-Gun they didn't come from an iron sight background. So less and less shot it, same with limited. I allowed red dots into limited and it caught on and sort of saved the division, but who really wanted to shoot a red dot on a 308..... And we were right back to AR-10 only as it is just as hard to put a red dot on say an M-14/FAL/HK-91 etc. as it is a scope. Yuck !!!!

 

Think I'm wrong? IPSC world rifle championships are coming up, we have like 47 Americans going, we have an open team, an open senior team, we have a ladies open team, we have a bunch of individuals in open and open lady, both senior and younger, we have super senior open shooters, BUT!! We only have 4 guys who are shooting limited/standard. Overseas limited is irons only. All 4 make up the U.S. team in standard. We don't have ANY Individuals in standard and our U.S. standard team is made up of 2 super seniors(60 and older) 1 senior (50 and older) and one line younger guy who is now stuck with the old geezers. Yep irons baby!

 

Interesting. Given the popularity of the AR10, why do you think heavy tac (or whatever you want to call it) isn’t bigger?

[HCH]

1 hour ago, Dan Sierpina said:

Not enough coffee.

 

 

I feel that

[StealthyBlagga]

I reviewed this exact question with an experienced group of HM shooters recently. The primary answer these days is COST. Certainly that is why I have not shot HM in many years - every time I pull the trigger it costs me twice as much as in any other division. All the matches I shoot require 1 A/B or 2 hits anywhere to neutralize. Special HM-specific scoring (e.g. 1 C neutralization) is problematic for a couple of reasons and is impractical outside of a dedicated HM-only match. Other than providing an ammo subside, I'm not sure there is a solution.

 

Indeed, I'm not sure there is a problem. While participation at our monthly matches is weak, at the major I work each year the participation in HM is very comparable to other second-tier divisions like Limited. My impression is that HM shooters enjoy the division because they like making loud booms and hitting targets hard. If it makes them happy, that's good enough for me 

Edited July 14, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[Rookie]

On 7/11/2019 at 1:53 PM, HCH said:

Why aren’t they more popular? Is it driven by cost? Difficulty? Prize tables that are weighted towards other divisions?

 

I don’t think cost is a big problem, as you typically shoot half the ammo. What’s your opinion?

First you have to define "Heavy - He-Man".  If it's a 308 Rifle, 45 Handgun and Pump Shotgun, then the answer may be... because it's hard.  (Can you hear me Kelly?)

• The weight and recoil of the rifle makes it a bit more of a challenge to operate, both effectively and efficiently relative to the AR-15 platform
• I suspect that a minority of the newer crop of 2-gun or 3-gun competitors own a 45 caliber handgun
• When is the last time you saw someone put 9 rounds through a pump shotgun in less than 2 seconds and actually hit something?

Those who shoot Heavy Metal do it for various reasons... but most that I know are doing it because of the added challenge, not in spite of it.  They like the blast and recoil of the rifle, and enjoy testing Steel Plates and target stand construction.  One of my friends brought a 44 single-action revolver to a match... because he could... (well, that and the fact that there was a cowboy theme and a horse prop involved) and he was still competitive because he could hit what he was aiming at.

 

Just sayin'

Edited July 14, 2019 by Rookie
grammar

[PacMan]

I shoot He Man class sometime because of the match itself and the atmosphere (Rocky Mt. He Man).  Cost difference between He Man and Wee Man is relative by the time you add them all up,

 

I'm sure if someone can come up with a BDC for iron sight, we would get a lot more young shooters in He Man/Heavy Metal ...

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by PacMan

[RiggerJJ]

3 hours ago, PacMan said:

I shoot He Man class sometime because of the match itself and the atmosphere (Rocky Mt. He Man).  Cost difference between He Man and Wee Man is relative by the time you add them all up,

 

I'm sure if someone can come up with a BDC for iron sight, we would get a lot more young shooters in He Man/Heavy Metal ...

 

Burris made one for a while, a 1x with a etched reticle with a BDC, wasn't very popular...I tried it and really couldn't use the BDC levels on the clock cause they were so close together.

The Spitfire works extremely well, has a dialable turrent with yardage marks on it...

 

[RiggerJJ]

I think saying ammo cost is the reason is a cop out, because it's really not that much more expensive if you reload your 308. Is about .45 cents a round for me, compared to .28 cents for 223...and that's using good bullets.

Commercial ammo? Yea, a bit more, $1.25 or so for 308 vs .60 cents for 223. But that's really not that bad, compared to the total cost of competing in a match...so saying ammo cost isnt really the reason...

Edited August 15, 2019 by RiggerJJ

[PacMan]

57 minutes ago, RiggerJJ said:

Burris made one for a while, a 1x with a etched reticle with a BDC, wasn't very popular...I tried it and really couldn't use the BDC levels on the clock cause they were so close together.

The Spitfire works extremely well, has a dialable turrent with yardage marks on it...

 

No JJ, I was being sarcastic about having BDC for iron sights.

 

That Burris AR1X sux big time for the exact reason you'd mentioned, also that's not true or faithful to iron sight religion IMO.

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by PacMan

[RiggerJJ]

Just now, PacMan said:

No JJ, I was being sarcastic about having BDC for iron sights.

 

That Burris AR1X sux big time for the exact reason you'd mentioned, but that's not true to iron sight religion IMO.

 

[HRider]

I shoot Heavy Metal-He Man sometimes. I really enjoy the extra planning that limited mag capacity forces on you as well as the added challenge of hitting things with an iron sighted rifle. I don't even mind shooting a pump shotgun. I don't shoot HM much locally as I can't afford to loose that much .45 brass (no one picks up brass behind shooters around here anymore. You can stay after matches, but after setting up and tearing down, I am ready to leave) and usually, I would be the only one. It does cost a bit more to shoot HM at BRM3g, but I have done it when there were enough shooters to make a division.

 I think a lot of people won't buy a AR10 and dedicate it to iron sights or just a red dot, they usually want a scope on it. Most people around here don't like shooting shotguns, (so we have more 2 gun matches), so they definately aren't going to buy a pump set up for the game. And, like was mentioned earlier, I don't think most of the newer shooters have .45s, and if they do, don't have 7-8 mags for them.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Hurley

[eastexsteve]

I've been looking for info on 3 gun heavy metal class and my searches led me here.  I was considering getting into heavy metal since one of the requirements required iron sights.  I thought it added another level of skill to the competition.  Now, I'm noticing all these heavy metal shooters with optics on the rifle.  To me, that's just wimping out, and defeats the whole idea.  Are there any more true heavy metal competitions out there?

[1chota]

Most matches have both He-Man(heavy) irons and optic (scope) divisions.

 

[RiggerJJ]

On 8/15/2019 at 9:26 AM, PacMan said:

No JJ, I was being sarcastic about having BDC for iron sights.

 

That Burris AR1X sux big time for the exact reason you'd mentioned, also that's not true or faithful to iron sight religion IMO.

 

 

Oh yea, and besides, the original A2 sights I started with DID have a BDC of sorts. All you had to do was twist the elevation on your rear sight! Built in BDC!