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Mojo_Hand_052

Schmeisser 60 Round Magazine

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I in no way represent Schmeisser or ATI, but I noticed that their polymer 60 round mag has finally hit the street and I decided to Guinea Pig it myself to see if it's all German hype:

 

https://www.americantactical.us/6088/detail.html

 

Ordered today through Fed-Ex and it should arrive next week.  

 

The other big competitors in the 60 round mag category are of course Surefire and Magpul - with the hat-tip going to Magpul for uncontested reliability.  These magazines typically retail for $120-$129 though can be found on sale or used for less sometimes.  The Schmeisser mag retails for $70, or nearly half the cost of either the Surefire or Magpul 60 round magazines.  

 

My testing will involve taking 500 rounds of Wolf steelcase ammunition and another 250 rounds of brass and running them through the magazine under different shooting conditions: Prone, on barricades, upside down, and with the magazine itself being used as a barricade stop to see if changes in orientation cause feeding issues.   I don't reload, so I won't be able to provide any feedback on ammunition that is loaded long.  I also have a phone with a camera that doesn't suck, and I'll try to record the different shooting positions so you can see how it runs.  

 

I plan on utilizing the magazine in multi-gun events in a gilded future where reloading is thing of the past. 

 

 

 

schmeisser-60-duo.jpg

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Pretty cost effective if it works well.

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Following


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I've got one on the way, though I doubt it'll be here in time to put it through the paces this weekend. I'm tired of coupled mags having the top round get shook halfway out and adding an extra step to the reload. I'm too much of a miser for the D60, so I'm hoping this Smiesser works well.

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Following looking forward to your review


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Posted (edited)

Apologies for the delay in the review but, through no fault of the vendor (ATI) I didn't wind up receiving the Schmeisser mag until last week and wasn't able to get out until today. 

 

Here's the bottom line: I found this magazine to be hilariously unreliable when using steelcase ammunition.  It was apparent that this magazine was so far below acceptable functionality that I didn't even bother to shoot up all 500 rounds of the Wolf Polyformance that I had brought along.  

 

Let's start from the beginning though.  Unloaded, my high performance kitchen scale shows the magazine to be 9.30 ounces, which is nearly twice the weight of an unloaded PMAG (5.10 ounces).  So for about a little less than the weight of two PMAGs you  get double the rounds - I can accept that.  Double the weight / double the bullets.  Fully loaded this mag will come in around +/- 32 ounces.  Comparing the geometry of the feed lips with an on-hand PMAG shows that there is very little difference between the two, or at least no noticeable difference that would affect overall performance.  

 

7TC4cxv.jpg?2

 

ddVOQav.jpg?1

 

Loading without a Mag Loader is inadvisable.  I have strong hands and could only manage 56 rounds total before I could no longer depress the follower.  Sixty is more than doable with your MagLula loader, however.  I did note that it is not a clean process.  The steelcase ammunition I was loading barely cleared the lip of the magazine.  I wound up having to 'wiggle' the Maglula handle in order to pre-seat the round, then push it back again in order to prepare space for the next cartridge.  All in all, I loaded and unloaded the magazine a total of three times before taking it out to the range.  

 

T6qmSku.jpg?1

11wkv0U.jpg?1

ddmLWeT.jpg?1

 

 

The build quality leaves nothing to be suspected.  The polymer appears to be good - not Magpul good - but plenty acceptable for the application.  The sidewalls are even thicker than a standard PMAG, so I had no questions about the general robustness of the magazine.  The springs, too, appear to be of good metallurgical quality, and I could not induce any kinks or deformations in them by hand.  I was extremely confident that this magazine would have no problems.  

 

And it didn't, at least not for the first sixty rounds.  

 

The first thing I did was a mag dump.  Sixty rounds on steel and not a single hiccup.  It was in this moment I saw a glorious future for myself and my Schmeisser mag; blasting stages without having to ever worry about a reload.  Come, Scmeisser Mag, lets top you off without another sixty rounds of terrible Russian steelcase ammo and do another mag dump, except this time I'm going to capture your magnificence on video.  I brought out a tripod and a phone mount and everything.  This was going to be a production.  

 

I jump in front of my camera and BLAM times twelve then JAMB.  Failure to feed.  It went on like this the rest of the sessions.  Never again was I able to get the Schmeisser mag to feed sixty rounds of steelcase without constant failures to feed, often after the first round had been fired.  It could be my gun, though.  Let's test it.  I fill a 40 round PMAG to capacity and work transition drills until the thing is dry.  No failures to feed, no problem. I do this twice. 

 

What's wrong with the Schmeisser mag?  My guess: There's an issue with the followers getting hung up inside the magazine.  By vigorously pounding the base of the Schmeisser mag against a hard surface, I could routinely cause one of the followers to get hung up inside the magazine.  What does that mean?  It means the bullets are literally sitting below the top of the magazine, with the spring unable to push them up into position.  On certain occasions, it was observable that the bullets were canted downward toward the hull of the magazine even when they appeared to seated against the top of the magazine.   In any case, after whacking the Schmeisser mag a few times, I could literally get bullets to pour out two or three at a time.  With a standard PMAG, you can bounce a bullet off the follower by slamming the base of it on a hard surface, but the next bullet will always be in the right position and ready to feed.  Not so with the Schmeisser magazine.  After taking an impact I would not trust the Schmeisser magazine in the least.  

 

 

x3QugTg.jpg?1

Q6areCT.jpg?3

sgQ8Kgq.jpg?2

 

You might have noticed earlier that I said "followers."  That's because, much like a Surefire 60 round magazine, there is a primary follower - the conventional follower you see when the magazine is unloaded, and then a secondary follower.  When enough rounds are loaded into the magazine, the first follower is compressed into the second, and creates a monoplatform where four rounds can be stacked.  The secondary follower has two grooves in it that are intended to slide along two extruded rails on the inner wall of the magazine, but I found that under tension there's very little stopping the front of the secondary follower from pitching upwards and causing malfunctions.  Hence the genius of Magpul's anti-tilt follower.  

 

dCKf4s5.jpg?1

plQOKfZ.jpg?2

DEMV9Qg.jpg?1

RCFTwZS.jpg

 

 

It was pretty evident that this thing was hopeless, and I didn't even bother running any brass through it.  Maybe I will next week, but I was so disgusted with its performance that I decided to make better use of my range time and work on transitions / 300 yards targets with magazines that work, and PMAGS work.  Maybe the Schmeisser mag would work better with brass case ammo, but I suspect it wouldn't make very much difference.  If I had to bet serious money, I'd say the major hangups are with the followers.  

 

What else to say?  I'm disappointed but not entirely surprised.  Executing a quad stack magazine that works is likely no easy engineering feat.  Regardless, I cannot recommend this product at all.  I'll do some more testing in the future, but for serious competition I would plan on sticking with 40 round PMAGS and +X extensions.    

 

Edited by Mojo_Hand_052

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Magpul D-60 may cost more, but it won't let you down. 

PSA has deals for a D-60 and a BCG for $120ish on occasion. Heck of a deal. 

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I finally got around to testing this mag myself today. I paid about $60 from Palmetto, and after the above review I was not hopeful. 

 

I did not experience much difficulty loading mine to 60 rounds, the last 10 were a bit stiff, but not too bad to accomplish by hand by any means. 

 

I had zero failures. I loaded 60 wolf gold and then 60 Fiocchi dynamics, shooting at various tempos, mostly offhand. 

 

I think I will want to run a few more before using it in a match, and then try it out in so low pressure matches to be sure. 

 

Obviously this magazine is really only useful in a match setting, and in my opinion it needs to be utterly reliable in that role. I'll update as I get more time on it. 

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I’d try it with the mag monopod approach and see what happens then. I think that’s the area you’d induce stoppages 

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1 hour ago, Blockader said:

I finally got around to testing this mag myself today.  

 

I had zero failures. 

 

Whew !!!

 

After reading Mojo's report, I thought I wasted $60.

 

Mine came this afternoon - probably be able to test it out next week.

 

I'll be using all brass ammo - no steel, so hopefully everything will work smoothly.     

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1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

I’d try it with the mag monopod approach and see what happens then. I think that’s the area you’d induce stoppages 

 

I shot maybe 10 or 12 resting on the mag without problems. Hardly a conclusive sample though haha.

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I'd like to see a lot of run time with quality BRASS cased FMJ. I don't trust eastern-bloc steel case.223 ammo further than I can throw it.

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13 hours ago, Blockader said:

I finally got around to testing this mag myself today. I paid about $60 from Palmetto, and after the above review I was not hopeful. 

 

I did not experience much difficulty loading mine to 60 rounds, the last 10 were a bit stiff, but not too bad to accomplish by hand by any means. 

 

I had zero failures. I loaded 60 wolf gold and then 60 Fiocchi dynamics, shooting at various tempos, mostly offhand. 

 

I think I will want to run a few more before using it in a match, and then try it out in so low pressure matches to be sure. 

 

Obviously this magazine is really only useful in a match setting, and in my opinion it needs to be utterly reliable in that role. I'll update as I get more time on it. 

 

That's great news.  I'm curious now to see how mine will run with brass cased ammunition this Saturday.  I would like hear about some other people's experience with steel case ammunition, though.  

 

10 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

I'd like to see a lot of run time with quality BRASS cased FMJ. I don't trust eastern-bloc steel case.223 ammo further than I can throw it.

 

I think that's a fair request.  The interesting question for me is: how much brass cased ammunition should I run through the magazine before it is deemed "reliable."  If we're talking about a multi-gun / 3 Gun scenario, and you're shooting between five to six stages, then satisfactory performance would be six magazines worth of brass without stoppages.    

 

And while I agree that steel case ammo can be notoriously unreliable, I have other magazines that run it without a problem.  Using these mags, I've run through a lot of steel cased ammunition without malfunctions, and I shoot steel cased for training because shooting volume is hella-expensive and I don't have time to reload.  From my standpoint, a magazine has to run crappy ammo in order to be considered fully-functional.  It would be like buying a truck and then discovering that it will only run on premium unleaded, and will crap out on the highway if you need to put regular unleaded into it.  

 

That being said, I've stripped the magazine and cleaned it, inspected it, and put it back together.  I'm not done with it yet, and we'll see if I can get it to run every type of ammo that I put into it.  

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Look forward to your results with brass cased ammunition.  Thanks for the report with pictures!      :cheers:

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I noticed that The OAL of the wolf gold just barely fit, if the length of the polyformance was even longer I wonder if that could be the source of the difference in function? Can you Mic the steel case ammo you were using? I can do wolf gold when I get home from work. 

 

The Fiocchi, which is my go to now because my 18" Odin likes it and it is cheap, fit great as it has a shorter OAL. Its bullet profile is not the usual m193. 

 

To me the greater difficulty loading the thing that you experienced suggests a problem with your unit or else the OAL of the rounds used. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't shoot combloc steel cased bimetal ammo in my rifles because (1) I've had lots of problems with stuck cases, (2) it is known to wear the barrel out faster, and (3) bimetal projectiles are banned at most matches I shoot, and at my practice range.

 

I do run 9mm Tula in my submachine gun because it is allowed under the match rules and it runs OK in that gun. However, I notice the rounds drag significantly more in the magazines than brass - for this reason, I add graphite powder as I load the mag (like one does with a BetaMag)... you might consider trying same in the Schmeisser mag.

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3 hours ago, Blockader said:

I noticed that The OAL of the wolf gold just barely fit, if the length of the polyformance was even longer I wonder if that could be the source of the difference in function? Can you Mic the steel case ammo you were using? I can do wolf gold when I get home from work. 

 

The Fiocchi, which is my go to now because my 18" Odin likes it and it is cheap, fit great as it has a shorter OAL. Its bullet profile is not the usual m193. 

 

To me the greater difficulty loading the thing that you experienced suggests a problem with your unit or else the OAL of the rounds used. 

 

I did note that the Wolf Steelcase appeared nearly too long for the Schmeisser mag.  I can't provide an immediate measurement on the Wolf because I don't own calipers, but I'll put one on order and try to provide an answer to that question.  I would really like for the problem to be OAL and not a functional issue with my mag.  

 

2 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

I don't shoot combloc steel cased bimetal ammo in my rifles because (1) I've had lots of problems with stuck cases, (2) it is known to wear the barrel out faster, and (3) bimetal projectiles are banned at most matches I shoot, and at my practice range.

 

I do run 9mm Tula in my submachine gun because it is allowed under the match rules and it runs OK in that gun. However, I notice the rounds drag significantly more in the magazines than brass - for this reason, I add graphite powder as I load the mag (like one does with a BetaMag)... you might consider trying same in the Schmeisser mag.

 

Can't disagree with that.  I've seen that Lucky Gunner uber-test where they burned down a few rifles shooting steel.  That stuff ain't good for you gun, but I'm currently feeding mine about half brass and half steel, which I think is a good compromise.  The tip about the graphite is on point, though, an I'll be sure to try that out. 

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Apologies for the delay in the review but, through no fault of the vendor (ATI) I didn't wind up receiving the Schmeisser mag until last week and wasn't able to get out until today. 
 
Here's the bottom line: I found this magazine to be hilariously unreliable when using steelcase ammunition.  It was apparent that this magazine was so far below acceptable functionality that I didn't even bother to shoot up all 500 rounds of the Wolf Polyformance that I had brought along.  
 
Let's start from the beginning though.  Unloaded, my high performance kitchen scale shows the magazine to be 9.30 ounces, which is nearly twice the weight of an unloaded PMAG (5.10 ounces).  So for about a little less than the weight of two PMAGs you  get double the rounds - I can accept that.  Double the weight / double the bullets.  Fully loaded this mag will come in around +/- 32 ounces.  Comparing the geometry of the feed lips with an on-hand PMAG shows that there is very little difference between the two, or at least no noticeable difference that would affect overall performance.  
 
7TC4cxv.jpg?2
 

ddVOQav.jpg?1

 
Loading without a Mag Loader is inadvisable.  I have strong hands and could only manage 56 rounds total before I could no longer depress the follower.  Sixty is more than doable with your MagLula loader, however.  I did note that it is not a clean process.  The steelcase ammunition I was loading barely cleared the lip of the magazine.  I wound up having to 'wiggle' the Maglula handle in order to pre-seat the round, then push it back again in order to prepare space for the next cartridge.  All in all, I loaded and unloaded the magazine a total of three times before taking it out to the range.  
 

T6qmSku.jpg?1

11wkv0U.jpg?1

ddmLWeT.jpg?1

 
 
The build quality leaves nothing to be suspected.  The polymer appears to be good - not Magpul good - but plenty acceptable for the application.  The sidewalls are even thicker than a standard PMAG, so I had no questions about the general robustness of the magazine.  The springs, too, appear to be of good metallurgical quality, and I could not induce any kinks or deformations in them by hand.  I was extremely confident that this magazine would have no problems.  
 
And it didn't, at least not for the first sixty rounds.  
 
The first thing I did was a mag dump.  Sixty rounds on steel and not a single hiccup.  It was in this moment I saw a glorious future for myself and my Schmeisser mag; blasting stages without having to ever worry about a reload.  Come, Scmeisser Mag, lets top you off without another sixty rounds of terrible Russian steelcase ammo and do another mag dump, except this time I'm going to capture your magnificence on video.  I brought out a tripod and a phone mount and everything.  This was going to be a production.  
 
I jump in front of my camera and BLAM times twelve then JAMB.  Failure to feed.  It went on like this the rest of the sessions.  Never again was I able to get the Schmeisser mag to feed sixty rounds of steelcase without constant failures to feed, often after the first round had been fired.  It could be my gun, though.  Let's test it.  I fill a 40 round PMAG to capacity and work transition drills until the thing is dry.  No failures to feed, no problem. I do this twice. 
 
What's wrong with the Schmeisser mag?  My guess: There's an issue with the followers getting hung up inside the magazine.  By vigorously pounding the base of the Schmeisser mag against a hard surface, I could routinely cause one of the followers to get hung up inside the magazine.  What does that mean?  It means the bullets are literally sitting below the top of the magazine, with the spring unable to push them up into position.  On certain occasions, it was observable that the bullets were canted downward toward the hull of the magazine even when they appeared to seated against the top of the magazine.   In any case, after whacking the Schmeisser mag a few times, I could literally get bullets to pour out two or three at a time.  With a standard PMAG, you can bounce a bullet off the follower by slamming the base of it on a hard surface, but the next bullet will always be in the right position and ready to feed.  Not so with the Schmeisser magazine.  After taking an impact I would not trust the Schmeisser magazine in the least.  
 
[/url]  

x3QugTg.jpg?1

Q6areCT.jpg?3

sgQ8Kgq.jpg?2

 
You might have noticed earlier that I said "followers."  That's because, much like a
Surefire 60 round magazine, there is a primary follower - the conventional follower you see when the magazine is unloaded, and then a secondary follower.  When enough rounds are loaded into the magazine, the first follower is compressed into the second, and creates a monoplatform where four rounds can be stacked.  The secondary follower has two grooves in it that are intended to slide along two extruded rails on the inner wall of the magazine, but I found that under tension there's very little stopping the front of the secondary follower from pitching upwards and causing malfunctions.  Hence the genius of Magpul's anti-tilt follower.  
 

dCKf4s5.jpg?1

plQOKfZ.jpg?2

DEMV9Qg.jpg?1

RCFTwZS.jpg

 
 
It was pretty evident that this thing was hopeless, and I didn't even bother running any brass through it.  Maybe I will next week, but I was so disgusted with its performance that I decided to make better use of my range time and work on transitions / 300 yards targets with magazines that work, and PMAGS work.  Maybe the Schmeisser mag would work better with brass case ammo, but I suspect it wouldn't make very much difference.  If I had to bet serious money, I'd say the major hangups are with the followers.  
 
What else to say?  I'm disappointed but not entirely surprised.  Executing a quad stack magazine that works is likely no easy engineering feat.  Regardless, I cannot recommend this product at all.  I'll do some more testing in the future, but for serious competition I would plan on sticking with 40 round PMAGS and +X extensions.    
 

Great review thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I just went out to the garage and measured a few different brands of ammo. All of it is factory loaded, I measured two of each type. The min and max lengths are below.

Wolf 62 fmj.  2.245-2.249

PMC bronze 55 fmj   2.249-2.2495

Aquila 55 fmj.  2.21-2.231

Privi M193 55 fmj.  2.255-2.255

LC M855.  2.248-2.248

WMA MK311 frangible 2.244-2.245

Fiocchi 77SMK 2.242-2.245

 

I had some Wolf laquer cased, but don't know if it is 55 or 62gr, but it was only a couple of thou shorter than the poly 62s that are at the top.

 

I hope this helps

Hurley

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Wolf Gold.    2.245

Fiocchi 55 grn.    2.15

Lake City m193.    2.245

 

I don't have any steel case 5.56 to measure. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I got around to measuring the Wolf Steel case.  I'm getting between 2.238-2.245 in OAL, which doesn't seem aggressively outside the norm.  I also had some PPU HPBT 69 grain sitting around and it has an OAL of 2.253.  I would really love to see if that feeds reliably.  

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My Federal 55 gr XM193's measure from 2.252" - 2.256", but 8/10 measured 2.254" - 2.255".

 

From looking above, it seems these are a little on the long side - but the 300 I've fired all

fed perfectly.

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