Kahles K16i 1-6 3GR vs Swarovski Z8i 1-8 BTR-I vs other for 3 gun?

[avastcosmicarena]

Looking around for a 3 gun LPVO. Narrowed it down to the Kahles K16i 1-6 with 3GR reticle and Swarovski Z8i 1-8 with BTR-I reticle so far. I am open to other alternatives as well, but looking at these mainly right now.

As far as I understand it, Kahles and Swarovski are sister companies, and the K16i seems very similar to the discontinued Swarovski Z6i, with the 3GR reticle being similar to the BTR reticle (Swarovski) and the G4B reticle (Kahles).

The 3GR reticle actually looks really nice to me. The floating dot seems nicer to me than the crosshairs intersecting with the dot like on the Swarovski's BTR-I.... but I am unsure about the 2nd illuminated dot below it. It seems like it might be somewhat of a distraction, but you could probably get used to it. Other than that, the 3GR and BTR-I seem fairly similar.

Other than the reticle, the Z8i obviously can go up to 8x, whereas the K16i can only go to 6x. There is roughly a $500 difference..... There seems to be tradeoffs either way. So, I'm not really sure which way to go at the moment.

Anybody have any thoughts? Has anyone had the chance to try both? Any other alternatives? Yes, I have considered the Vortex also and may end up with it in the end, but I'm not sure. I'd prefer something more lightweight and with the mil adjustments like these have. Anything else I should be looking at?
 

[mtruong]

Vortex Razor HD 1-6 Gen 2 is amazing, I cant imagine glass clarity getting better than it. Don’t really need FFP for distances in 3gun competition, but something I’d look for if going to a 1-8x. 

 

Geissele actually runs awesome optics packages where you get a free $325 mount if you buy the optic from them. The Vortex Razor with Geissele 30mm extended mount is pretty much bombproof, and currently used by SOCOM. They have their choice of anything, and they picked Vortex + Geissele. Plus almost every top 3gun shooter runs Vortex for what it’s worth. There is an option to get the VMR-2 reticle in mils if that’s what you’re looking for, but practically speaking there’s no difference if you’re running holdovers with a ballistic calculator (which you should be). 

Edited July 6, 2019 by mtruong

[Hi-Power Jack]

No personal experience, but I've read HERE at BE over the years, from people

who seem to know :

 

Vortex has great everything and warranty, but tend to break putting you out of

the game for a few weeks - tough if you're shooting distant, large matches - but

great for local matches

 

They will fix it, but it tends to break more often than the Kahles/SV.

 

The Kahles/SV is even better optics (which is great in low light/far distance, etc

and lighter in weight (And, much more expensive).

 

Whether you need 8x is personal - read old posts on the issue - good and bad points.

Some experts I've read say clarity is better than more power.     

 

Also depends on the distance you'll be shooting.

[CharlieD]

I have both the Kahles K16i with 3GR reticle and the Swaro Z6i with BRT reticle.  Both are amazing, but I prefer the Kahles reticle.  The second dot I’m not as crazy about.

 

I’ve also used a Z8i, the extra 2x is nice, but at the expense of field of view.  For most 3gun distances I prefer the 1-6.

[avastcosmicarena]

13 hours ago, mtruong said:

Don’t really need FFP for distances in 3gun competition, but something I’d look for if going to a 1-8x. 

I don't see many good looking options out there for FFP. There's the Nightforce ATACR 1-8, but I don't like the reticle. Too large/distracting at 1x with the outer ring, and then the center dot is too big at 8x. Seems to be more of a general purpose short-to-mid range combat optic.

The Minox 1-8 with it's dual focal plane setup was interesting to me for a bit until I learned that you lose the center SFP dot at about 3x magnification and then only have the reticle, which doesn't get daylight bright. 

 

13 hours ago, mtruong said:

Plus almost every top 3gun shooter runs Vortex for what it’s worth.

I know a lot of people use the Razor HD Gen II or the lighter Gen II-E, but people do also use Swarovski & Kahles as well. A lot of the top IPSC Rifle World Shoot shooters use the Swaro Z8i.

Just 2-3 years ago, you were seeing 3-gun oriented videos like this about the Z6i:
 

And JP just made this earlier this year:
 

 

13 hours ago, mtruong said:

There is an option to get the VMR-2 reticle in mils if that’s what you’re looking for, but practically speaking there’s no difference if you’re running holdovers with a ballistic calculator (which you should be). 

I was talking more about the turret adjustments. I guess the MRAD version of the Vortex does also, but it's 0.2 mil, whereas the Kahles and Swaro have 0.1 mil adjustments.

[avastcosmicarena]

13 minutes ago, CharlieD said:

The second dot I’m not as crazy about.

Do you find it distracting? I get the idea of what they're going for, but I'm not sure whether or not I'd like it. The BRT-I reticle looks really similar without the distraction. I do wish it had that floating center dot though. Something halfway in between the BRT-I and the 3GR would be perfect.
 

15 minutes ago, CharlieD said:

I’ve also used a Z8i, the extra 2x is nice, but at the expense of field of view.  For most 3gun distances I prefer the 1-6.

They discontinued the Z6i in favor of the Z8i. I'd maybe consider the Z6i if I found a really good deal on a used one, but otherwise would rather get the Z8i, I think. Is the FOV really much different? A lot of reviews I read said the Z8i had a really good FOV.

[avastcosmicarena]

The one thing I'm semi-worried about with the Swarovski is durability. It's probably not as robust as the Razor. Not sure about tossing it into barrels, etc....

[CharlieD]

22 minutes ago, avastcosmicarena said:

Do you find it distracting? I get the idea of what they're going for, but I'm not sure whether or not I'd like it. The BRT-I reticle looks really similar without the distraction. I do wish it had that floating center dot though. Something halfway in between the BRT-I and the 3GR would be perfect.
 

They discontinued the Z6i in favor of the Z8i. I'd maybe consider the Z6i if I found a really good deal on a used one, but otherwise would rather get the Z8i, I think. Is the FOV really much different? A lot of reviews I read said the Z8i had a really good FOV.

 

I did find the second dot distracting at first, but you get used to it, and in some instances find it useful. 

 

As as far as fov goes, more is better.  When I have a long range stage with targets spread out, I have a better chance of picking up the next target in the scope, vs picking my head up, with the 6x vs 8x.  

 

Out to 400yds or so I prefer 6x.  I’ve considered the Z8i for longer range matches, just not sure it’s worth it.  

[avastcosmicarena]

@CharlieD Do you notice a difference in the brightness of the dots on the Kahles vs the Swarovski? Is one noticeably brighter than the other or are they about the same? Are they both the same orangey-yellow like on the Swaro or is the Kahles more red like the Vortex Razor HD?

Edited July 6, 2019 by avastcosmicarena

[CharlieD]

1 hour ago, avastcosmicarena said:

@CharlieD Do you notice a difference in the brightness of the dots on the Kahles vs the Swarovski? Is one noticeably brighter than the other or are they about the same? Are they both the same orangey-yellow like on the Swaro or is the Kahles more red like the Vortex Razor HD?

The Swaro is bigger and brighter.  The Kahles is red, not orange like the Swaro.

[AFguywhoshoots]

I have the SM1 reticle in my Kahles and I love it. I wouldn't change my setup. Kahles is the military lineup for Swarovski, so I would like to think their a little tougher. I've had mine for over a year with no issues. With the SM1 reticle, sight it in at 150 and the sub extensions line up pretty nicely.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[Pollock]

I don’t know anything about the scopes you mention but I will say that my razor has made me very happy...but it just started to get really fishy. My reticle is rotating leading to a shifting zero and now the illumination is on the fritz. I know Vortex has me covered, but it did just start before a big club match and unfortunately I was left shooting a broken optic. I’ll be shipping it out this weekend for their warranty program. They may be robust but certainly aren’t unbreakable. 

[Hunter1998]

Kahles 1-6 with 3gr reticle has been a great scope. I was very hesitant to commit to that much in funds but very happy I did.

the scope’s FOV and clarity is phenomenal and reticle is easy to use. Zeroed my load at 170 yards and was almost dead on at 300 and 400 yards. Great choice and has great resale value.

[inertia]

I have the Kahles, the vortex and a couple other 1-8s most notable the ATACR but not the swaro, yet. I will say the swaro is amazing my buddy just got it but you do give up a little FOV at 8x and remember with 2nd fp your reticle subtensions arent really useful unless your on 8x. Trying to use the mills on say 4-5x for mid range targets gets dicey and I have bombed a few stages over the years by turning the mag up to 5 and thinking I was on 6. But, the swaro does have amazing FOV for its magnification, most of any I have seen. It's a hard choice but either are capable of extreme performance in very hard matches. The vortex if the favorite of anyone that owns it, including me, until you pony up for the kahles or swaro, then your done with that one.

[avastcosmicarena]

I ended up buying the Z8i and a Spuhr mount. I really like it so far!



Ordered a throw lever for it, but don't have it yet.

I was worried the dot might be too big for me, but I like it.

[Malcolm31]

Something to consider....which optic company supports 3 Gun the most?  

Honestly, I’ve tried all 3 and I bought the Razor and I would do it again.  Solid optic ....and Ive been throwing mine in barrels more than once a week for years.

[Ming the Merciless]

Another plus for the Vortex is, the bill of your baseball cap won't turn off the illumination!  DOH!

[RawTime]

I have not used either you asked about

  I do have a razor hd ii 1-6 (not e) and a trijicon 1-8 accupower. I am still torn between em.

While i love the 1-8 on the accupower. It’s just not the same as the vortex. When you pull that up to your eye. You see everything. So clear and open. The bezel disappears. I don’t have the JM reticle, and I don’t regret not getting it. 

The accupower is great too. The 1-8 can come in handy over the 1-6. The reticle is a lil busier. 

 

They both weigh the same pretty much. Which i don’t have an issue with. Because I can carry my rifle for the >1 min of a 3 gun stage

 

but I have heard great things about the 2 you asked about. I had the Khales 4-16 and it was f*#kinfantassstic. If that helps haha

 

[pjb45]

I have a Swaro 1.7-10x. It is not FFP. 

 

The glass, eye relief and FOV is awesome. That can be said for the K also. 

 

Personally I need the 10x.  

 

Both are are worth the extra money.