CK Thunder tunning help ?!?

[Stjs45]

New to the forum as well as open shooting. Have shot my fare share of three gun as well as PRS matches. Very familiar with  reloading, and have a XL650 loading MG 124 JHP. Believe The thunder comes with a 9# recoil spring. I called CK and they recommended OAL of 1.160 and steered me away from HS6 and advice WAC.  I loaded;

6.8gr - 170.1 PF

6.9gr - 171.9 PF

7.0gr - 174.3 PF

7.1gr - 177 PF

7.2gr - and didn’t shoot as 7.1 was high!

 

I have three upward barrel holes. I know everyone expect the open guns to hit like tiny baby farts and I understand it’s not realistic, but I feel I got to do some further tuning as I feel this gun hits like my 34glock with a lighten wolf spring and regular loads. I have already upgraded to a thumb rest but will do anything recommended. 

 

I shot a open open gun at a 3 gun match and it felt like a freaking .22.  Btw I have read and read all the “FLAT’’ major threads but can see if I’m doing something wrong or where to take it from here. What would y’all advice. Thanx yall. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Stjs45

[kujo929]

I tried WAC briefly and didn’t like it at all. Some shooting buddies love it though. I’ve had good luck with silhouette, HS6, and AA7.

The more you shoot it and get used to it honestly the less your load Developement will likely matter. Pick something that you like and run it until it is your normal. Dot is gonna move some but as long as it returns faster than you can pull the trigger again then does that really make a difference?

This is with 125gr Bullets and AA7 shot last night. If you find something relatively accurate that you can keep hits in A zone rapid firing at 10-15yds you will probably do fine with it.

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[aandabooks]

Nice looking gun.  When developing my open loads for guns with poppel holes, I went with HS6.  I tried WAC, CFE and AA#7.  First two were too fast and didn't adequately work the holes and comp.  Didn't like how full the case was and how like sand AA#7 is.  Settled on 8.0gr for 124gr and 8.4gr for 115gr PD bullets using the HS6.  The dot movement is straight up and down.  The guns are flat and while I'm not sure .22 soft they are very shootable.

[kujo929]

Nice looking gun.  When developing my open loads for guns with poppel holes, I went with HS6.  I tried WAC, CFE and AA#7.  First two were too fast and didn't adequately work the holes and comp.  Didn't like how full the case was and how like sand AA#7 is.  Settled on 8.0gr for 124gr and 8.4gr for 115gr PD bullets using the HS6.  The dot movement is straight up and down.  The guns are flat and while I'm not sure .22 soft they are very shootable.

Agree with you completely on AA7. Once I burn through my supply I’m probably going back to HS6.


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[aandabooks]

4 minutes ago, kujo929 said:

 

 

Agree with you completely on AA7. Once I burn through my supply I’m probably going back to HS6.


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I only bought 1 pound to try and about half pound is still on the shelf.  I'll be sticking with HS6 unless I decide to try something in the Vihtivouri (sp?) lineup.  My main reloading shop just went out of business so I'll have to find another steady supply of powder if I'm going to switch.  Got about 30lbs of HS6 to work my way through before I have to worry about it.

[kujo929]

 
I only bought 1 pound to try and about half pound is still on the shelf.  I'll be sticking with HS6 unless I decide to try something in the Vihtivouri (sp?) lineup.  My main reloading shop just went out of business so I'll have to find another steady supply of powder if I'm going to switch.  Got about 30lbs of HS6 to work my way through before I have to worry about it.

Same here. 20 something of AA7. But it shoots just fine. Just a pain on the press due to how fine it is.


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[Stjs45]

Kujo - that’s pretty flat. Obviously your grip has a lot to do with it, but I can tell you mines not quite like that. What spring # is that?

 

Aanda - I originally wanted to play with HS6 as my research pointed that way. But does a powder actually make that big a difference?

 

 

CK told me 172 PF “maximized’” the comps. What are yalls experience. 

 

[kujo929]

I use 8lb currently.

And yes I try to run just over 170pf generally 171-172. Atlas builds them to run at 170 so if CK is telling you the same then I would use that.


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[echotango]

See what it does on paper. Try a bill drill or something similar like 13-04 as shown above, along with doubles with different powders. I tried wac, aa7 and hs6. Didn't like hs6 or aa7. A lot more dot noise and my groups were a lot bigger than wac. 

Everything works differently for everyone. 

 

There is also more to it like spring choices, FPS's, grip, comps and weight distribution(steel grip, comp weight, etc). 

 

Also don't chase the "flat and soft". Flat is not soft. Pick what feels and shoots best and the fastest.  Then practice. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by echotango

[Explosiveo]

I have a very similar gun. I shoot 115gr Everglades JHP V2 under 8.8gr HS6 at 1.165 shoots very nice. I use a 8# variable recoil spring.

I am wondering if the open gun you shot that felt like a .22 was shooting minor power factor loads? Open gun should not feel like a .22. It should feel like a hand cannon but with less muzzle flip and dot movement. 

I would suggest trying a few different powders. Maybe go to a match and see if you can get a couple open shooters to let you try a couple of their loads. Almost all of my local friends are shooting HS6 and 115s

[aandabooks]

19 minutes ago, Stjs45 said:

Kujo - that’s pretty flat. Obviously your grip has a lot to do with it, but I can tell you mines not quite like that. What spring # is that?

 

Aanda - I originally wanted to play with HS6 as my research pointed that way. But does a powder actually make that big a difference?

 

 

CK told me 172 PF “maximized’” the comps. What are yalls experience. 

 

 

If you are running 7.0gr of the WAC and I am using 8.0gr of the HS6 to make the same PF with a 124gr bullet then I am using 14.2% more powder than you are.  That gas that the powder produces when it burns has to go somewhere.  The basic idea is that it goes up which in turn pushes your gun down.  With that in mind, I used to use 9.8gr of AA#7 so it should have produced even more gas but there is a limit to how much your poppel holes and comp can expel up before the remainder goes out the end of the comp after the bullet.

[aandabooks]

Just out of curiosity, why did CK steer you away from HS6?

[Stjs45]

Just now, aandabooks said:

Just out of curiosity, why did CK steer you away from HS6?

 

Not so much that he steered me away from it but said they have ran many different powders and settled on WAC as being the better choice. I will definitely try HS6. At this current stage in my experience I really count tell much difference between 170 , 172 , 174. Haha.

 

i am a true believer that ‘too’ much gas will go out the front in turn creating more backwards recoil. 

 

Sounds like I need to try a 8# spring as well as a different powder around the 170-172 PF. Run drills and work on grip. Just don’t know if someone’s has tried a better comp, fairy dust powder, lighten slide, cut springs. Etc...  Not looking for a magic potion, but any insight or recommendations for more experience open shooters. 

 

 

[zzt]

You don't say how big your poppels are, so I'll use my gun as an example.  One of my Open guns has two 3/16" poppels and runs a four chamber, 5 port comp.  Because I didn't know any better, I started with the Unique, WAC and HS-6 everybody recommended.  Unique was too fast.  HS-6 made the dot wiggle.  So I used WAC.  Later I switched to Silhouette.  I was using 7.3gr Silhouette or 7.2gr WAC for 172PF.

 

The gun hit my hand hard and the dot left the glass.  The reason is the poppels rob gas from the comp.  Gas hitting the baffles in the comp pushes the gun forward and lessens felt recoil.  I decided to try a slower powder, so I bought some Major Pistol powder.  10.2gr gives me the same PF, but the gun shoots softer and flatter.  I'm now making enough gas to work both the comp and the poppels.  I convinced a buddy shooting CFE (like WAC) to give it a try.  He loved it.  He said it felt like cheating.

 

Btw, little or no gas exits the front on my comp with this load.

[Stjs45]

38 minutes ago, zzt said:

You don't say how big your poppels are, so I'll use my gun as an example.  One of my Open guns has two 3/16" poppels and runs a four chamber, 5 port comp.  Because I didn't know any better, I started with the Unique, WAC and HS-6 everybody recommended.  Unique was too fast.  HS-6 made the dot wiggle.  So I used WAC.  Later I switched to Silhouette.  I was using 7.3gr Silhouette or 7.2gr WAC for 172PF.

 

The gun hit my hand hard and the dot left the glass.  The reason is the poppels rob gas from the comp.  Gas hitting the baffles in the comp pushes the gun forward and lessens felt recoil.  I decided to try a slower powder, so I bought some Major Pistol powder.  10.2gr gives me the same PF, but the gun shoots softer and flatter.  I'm now making enough gas to work both the comp and the poppels.  I convinced a buddy shooting CFE (like WAC) to give it a try.  He loved it.  He said it felt like cheating.

 

Btw, little or no gas exits the front on my comp with this load.

 

 

ZZT, I was doing so research on that powder yesterday and ran into someone shooting exactly the same gun I have with that powder. From what I can see major pistol powder will produce a crap ton of gas and should accomplish what I expected open guns to shoot like. 

 

Do y’all use shock buffers and cut the spring if the spring is binding. Does that make the slide not hit as hard fo y’all?

[MikeBurgess]

Try some different powders and billets and see what YOU like the feel of better, but be prepaired for the reality that there is no magic combination that is way softer or a ton flatter. All the mucking about we do with loads makes very little actual difference, its all just small changes at the edges.

 

Also you hear a lot about loads that have the dot never leave the glass, i have yet to see that gun or load. I think what most people that say their dot never leaves the glass actually are seeing is their dot returns close to where it left where it went when the slide bottomed out on the frame they did not actually see.

 

 

 

As said above the open gun you shot at a 3 gun match was likely running minor and yes a decent minor load in a open gun is silly soft.

 

 

 

 

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[zzt]

1 hour ago, Stjs45 said:

Do y’all use shock buffers and cut the spring if the spring is binding. Does that make the slide not hit as hard fo y’all?

 

No shock buffers. They shorten the stroke which is something I do not want.  I tune my springs to the gun they are in.   I push the spring guide forward as far as it will go.  If it touches the back of the spring tunnel, it's good.  If it doesn't, the spring is stacking and you have to trim some off the front until the guide rod touches.

 

As far as powders go, you want lots of gas.  So you want slower powders.  That means 3N38, AA7 or Major Pistol.  There is no reason to try HS-6 because you only need a grain more than WAC for major.  Major Pistol meters like water, shoots clean and is easily compressible if needed.  You'll have to fight with 3N38 and it costs a fortune, so why bother.  AA7 works just like MP.

 

Try a lighter bullet also.  I'm running 10.2gr MP under a 115 in one of my Open guns for 168PF, SD 5.90.  124s feel harsher to me, because I use less powder so less gas.  

[kujo929]

Everyone sets up different. I use a shock buff and cut spring until it will bottom out on the buff rather than on spring stack. However my gun is also stroked so it has more travel than an unstroked gun.

My dot doesn’t leave the glass. Not even close. Currently use a 510C which makes that much more forgiving but even prior with DPP and RTS 2 it did not either. That is mostly in grip though moreso than load.


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[Th3Un4givin]

My ck shorty seems to do really well with my WAC load, it’s 7.2gr under a 124gr jhp. The dot tracks really well, when I have a good grip the dot doesn’t leave the glass. 

[Glock17open]

I have a CK, with no poppel hole, 6.7 grns of wac, under a 125 grn blue bullet. pF of 173. Bobby, says a 172 power factor makes the comp work.

[AKJD]

I really like Major Pistol. Feels better and dot tracks better for me than  HS-6 and WAC. Added benefit for me is that it’s much cheaper. I’ve been shooting CO lately but when I go back to open I will be using Major Pistol.

[racer-x]

I've experimented with a lot of load combinations and how they work for me on the clock.

10.8 grains AA7 under a MG 115 JHP @1.165 OAL is my favorite in my CK Thunder 9's.

I recommend trying a Wolf 8# variable with this and see what you think.

 

*** plunk test to ensure 1.165 OAL load does NOT contact leade first ***

*** work up to this load in your gun to be safe  ***

 

I have 2 CK thunders and this load chrono's 1490-1500fps in each.

Both my CK's came with short leades. I had to throat ream each to load longer than 1.125 safely.

 

AA7 is a little dirty compared to the likes of VV3n38, but is cheap, available and meters great. Also, AA7 is not temp sensitive.

I did a shootout comparison between HS6 & AA7 a while back and AA7 proved  a little cleaner than HS6.

Also, AA7 is a very fine powder. This 10.8 grain charge easily fits in a 9 case (  13.8 grains AA7 fills case to the top).

 

 

 

[36873687]

4 hours ago, racer-x said:

I've experimented with a lot of load combinations and how they work for me on the clock.

10.8 grains AA7 under a MG 115 JHP @1.165 OAL is my favorite in my CK Thunder 9's.

I recommend trying a Wolf 8# variable with this and see what you think.

 

*** plunk test to ensure 1.165 OAL load does NOT contact leade first ***

*** work up to this load in your gun to be safe  ***

 

I have 2 CK thunders and this load chrono's 1490-1500fps in each.

Both my CK's came with short leades. I had to throat ream each to load longer than 1.125 safely.

 

AA7 is a little dirty compared to the likes of VV3n38, but is cheap, available and meters great. Also, AA7 is not temp sensitive.

I did a shootout comparison between HS6 & AA7 a while back and AA7 proved  a little cleaner than HS6.

Also, AA7 is a very fine powder. This 10.8 grain charge easily fits in a 9 case (  13.8 grains AA7 fills case to the top).

 

 

 

Aa7 is very temp sensitive. But your right on the 115 jhp load. I use pd at 10.55 in a thunder an hardcore. Got nervous with all these slides cracking an switched to 125 grain pill

[racer-x]

9 hours ago, 36873687 said:

Aa7 is very temp sensitive. But your right on the 115 jhp load. I use pd at 10.55 in a thunder an hardcore. Got nervous with all these slides cracking an switched to 125 grain pill

 

That is not my experience.

 

I've tested this many times over the last 2 years with multiple guns. This most recent same day test is with my Atlas Chaos using identical ammo (range brass).

Results have been similar with my other guns in outside temps between 29 - 104F. I've seen bigger differences between lots of the same powder.

 

 

[chevrofreak]

I normally shoot 115's but have been running 124's to use them up.  Right now in my CK I am running 7.7gr of Silhouette under an RMR 124gr hardcore match loaded to 1.190" and it feels awesome.  It feels very similar to my 7.8gr HS-6 and 124gr PD JHP at 1.155" load. 

 

I don't like WAC.  At all.