gose Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 With the upcoming USPSA election, I took a quick look in the bylaws and noticed that, according to section 6.3, only members that are US citizens are allowed to vote. AFAIK, USPSA doesnt track immigration status and there are definitely quite a few non-citizens members of USPSA and likely some of them vote too. I assume the bylaws have to be followed for an election to be valid, so how can USPSA guarantee the integrity of the election if there's a really close or contested race, when they really have no idea if someone really is eligible to vote or not? Maybe it's time to change the bylaws to instead read "Legal resident of the United States"? Seems easier than tracking people's immigration status Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Proving that you are a legal resident is just as easy/difficult as proving that you're a citizen. A lot of the documents that one might think prove legal residency do not, particularly those issued in California. To answer your question, I seriously doubt USPSA HQ knows who's a citizen and who is not. And I doubt the membership at large cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 They don't have any way to know who is US citizen, according to Mike Foley, this was a recent change in the bylaws, yet they chose to use residency as proof of citizenship. Anyone can join USPSA, give an address in the United States and be considered a US citizen. There is nothing to stop one person from making up names and joining multiple times and voting, since voting is online, they have no idea if the persons membership is a fake name they used to join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 You should be required to shoot a hole in your ballot for the candidate of your choice. At least that way you're probably legally able to own a gun in the US and hopefully not a terrible shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Non US citizens can legally own a gun so that won’t help much. Perhaps there should be a checkbox on the vote that states, under penalty of perjury, that the voter is a US CITIZEN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef15 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 1 hour ago, bret said: They don't have any way to know who is US citizen, according to Mike Foley, this was a recent change in the bylaws, yet they chose to use residency as proof of citizenship. Anyone can join USPSA, give an address in the United States and be considered a US citizen. There is nothing to stop one person from making up names and joining multiple times and voting, since voting is online, they have no idea if the persons membership is a fake name they used to join. This sport has a lot of down right stupid goings on. If it is ever proven to have enough losers that planned and spent their money to throw the election of leadership I'm out. Perhaps instead of the date deadline for eligibility they could require the voter be classified, with at least one score in the last x years. Really require such persons to invest some time and planning getting their extra votes in. That'd also make sense vs citizenship, who cares where a person is from if they're actively shooting matches under the USPSA banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Let me ask a more fundamental question......if you are paid up as a member, why should you be denied a vote because of where you live or what country's name is on your passport? It's a sport governing body, not a national government. If USPSA doesn't want to let non-citizens vote, then don't take their membership money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, elguapo said: Let me ask a more fundamental question......if you are paid up as a member, why should you be denied a vote because of where you live or what country's name is on your passport? It's a sport governing body, not a national government. If USPSA doesn't want to let non-citizens vote, then don't take their membership money. agree. if you live here and shoot matches, you should be able to vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, elguapo said: Let me ask a more fundamental question......if you are paid up as a member, why should you be denied a vote because of where you live or what country's name is on your passport? It's a sport governing body, not a national government. If USPSA doesn't want to let non-citizens vote, then don't take their membership money. Because the BOD changed the bylaws to say only US Citizens can vote. They did not say that you had to be a US Citizen to join or shoot USPSA. Mike Foley said they are using your address as a way to prove citizenship. There are plenty of active good shooters from Jamaica, are they going to be able to vote? There were some comments about it on a Facebook post but now they are gone, looks like someone at USPSA doesn't like this being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 What about US citizens who are USPSA members but live overseas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, PhilTerry said: What about US citizens who are USPSA members but live overseas? Guess they can't vote unless they maintain a US address. The election hasn't started and this interpretation of what us citizenship is, already is muddying it up. With their method of enforcing citizenship, they have already ruing the integrity of the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLDave Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 1 hour ago, shred said: You should be required to shoot a hole in your ballot for the candidate of your choice. At least that way you're probably legally able to own a gun in the US and hopefully not a terrible shot. I feel like this is an underappreciated comment. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 32 minutes ago, motosapiens said: agree. if you live here and shoot matches, you should be able to vote. If you are a uspsa member, you should be able to vote. I like the idea of having to actually shoot uspsa matches to vote. You should also have to shoot uspsa matches to be an r.o., rm or rmi, too many professional r.o.'s don't shoot or can't shoot but work matches, but that is another issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 lol @ "professional r.o.'s" there's some big money being made in that profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: lol @ "professional r.o.'s" there's some big money being made in that profession. They aren't making money but they work the matches and are not very good at it. Can a r.o. get DQd for shooting a hole in a ditch barrel clearing a shotgun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Just now, bret said: They aren't making money but they work the matches and are not very good at it. Can a r.o. get DQd for shooting a hole in a ditch barrel clearing a shotgun? Oh, so it's not shooting you care about, but actually being a decent RO.... that makes a LOT more sense. FWIW, there is already an RO disciplinary process in place to deal with problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 52 minutes ago, bret said: Because the BOD changed the bylaws to say only US Citizens can vote. They did not say that you had to be a US Citizen to join or shoot USPSA. Mike Foley said they are using your address as a way to prove citizenship. There are plenty of active good shooters from Jamaica, are they going to be able to vote? There were some comments about it on a Facebook post but now they are gone, looks like someone at USPSA doesn't like this being discussed. You missed the point, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 1 hour ago, motosapiens said: agree. if you live here and shoot matches, you should be able to vote. I don't agree with your qualifiers. If you're a member in good standing, regardless of where you live or shoot (or even if you don't shoot any matches) then you should get a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, motosapiens said: Oh, so it's not shooting you care about, but actually being a decent RO.... that makes a LOT more sense. FWIW, there is already an RO disciplinary process in place to deal with problems. If they are good r.o's I don't care but most of the professional r.o.'s that are not very good don't shoot or don't shoot very well. There may not be a connection but there seems to be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 If you are a USPSA member, you should be able to vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 1 minute ago, elguapo said: I don't agree with your qualifiers. If you're a member in good standing, regardless of where you live or shoot (or even if you don't shoot any matches) then you should get a vote. It doesn't bother me if your opinion is wrong. Personally I don't want 10k russian residents joining uspsa and voting for someone who will ruin pistol matches by letting rifles in.... wait, wut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Just now, motosapiens said: It doesn't bother me if your opinion is wrong. As if yours mattered any Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, elguapo said: You missed the point, I think. I may have, I see some merit in shooting matches to vote, but if you are a uspsa member, you should be able to vote. They have no problem taking your money but want to restrict who can vote and pick a bad method of determining who is a citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcfoto Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) I saw the "citizen" notation on the announcement email and took it as them just trying to distinguish from IPSC members. On reflection upon reading the comments here, I agree it should have been worded "US citizens or residents" and left it at that. Edited July 1, 2019 by Mcfoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 17 minutes ago, motosapiens said: It doesn't bother me if your opinion is wrong. Personally I don't want 10k russian residents joining uspsa and voting for someone who will ruin pistol matches by letting rifles in.... wait, wut? BWAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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