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sierra77mk

Montana Gold 147's and Crimp Bullet Setback problems.

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Why can I load 147 grain Hornady, Precision Delta, Remington HP, Remington FMJ Winchester FMJ with no problems and then when I load Montana Gold 147's I can push the bullet back into the case with moderate hand pressure against my loading bench?

Is it the brass jacket sliding against the brass case? Dissimilar metals grab but similar metals will slide?

A copper jacket in a brass case on all of the other listed bullets and I have no problems.

Montana Gold bullets measure .3555-.356 so they are NOT undersized.

In fact the montana gold 147's that I am using are almost identical in profile to the remington FMJ's. So why the setback problems?

I am beginning to despise Montana Gold's entire product line, I have more problems with their bullets than any other.
Full disclosure, I have not purchased any MG 9mm bullets, I have won several boxes of several weights at matches but I will not buy any unless someone can tell me the trick to loading them like copper jacketed bullets.

I use a redding crimp die and I have to crank it down til the bullets are deformed and I can STILL push the bullets back into the case.

What is the secret to loading brass jacketed bullets?

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This sounds very frustrating. I’ve shot cases and cases of MG 147s and stock Dillon dies with no issues.

Have you tried a Lee U die? ~$20 die is worth a shot.

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10 hours ago, sierra77mk said:

 

I use a redding crimp die and I have to crank it down til the bullets are deformed and I can STILL push the bullets back into the case.

 

The crimp has nothing to do with bullet set back.

 

Matter of fact, in a 9mm, "crimp" means removing the bell you created

to easily seat the bullet - should be no discernible "crimp" after you've "crimped".

 

Usually, it's the sizing die that affects neck tension.  That affects setback

or neck tension.

 

I don't understand how you can properly seat a half dozen other brand

bullets, but NOT the MG - so I'll leave that for the "Experts" to discuss.

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MG are awesome bullets. All of your speculation and gum beating about copper vs brass etc is funny. MG are copper jackets with different formulation they are not brass jackets. They are harder than other jackets because of it but they load the same or better than other bullets.

 So:

What sizing die? What headstamp case? I scrapped my Dillon seater because it didn’t size certain cases tight enough. 

 

Is your die just kissing the shell plate? Is the shell plate tight? 

 

A 147 should be getting sized quite deep and be nearly impossible to push in further . I would say your die is loose and not sizing the cases properly.

 

And like Jack said, tightening crimp is not the answer to curing setback. It’s the exact opposite of what you want to do.

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1 hour ago, Sarge said:

 MG are copper jackets with different formulation they are not brass jackets.

 

Well, technically speaking, that's not true. 

Almost all alloys used in jacketed bullet manufacturing are "brasses". 

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Try pulling the bullet just after seating and before the crimp. If you still have a setback check the sizing die. you can also be having a problem because the ogive on that bullet is different from the other bullets. If it's the ogive, than you'll need to adjust your OAL. I use 147 Montana without issues. My OAL is 1.10.  I'm betting that the sizing die is off. 

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37 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

Well, technically speaking, that's not true. 

Almost all alloys used in jacketed bullet manufacturing are "brasses". 

Ok. Regardless they should load without issue.

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14 hours ago, sierra77mk said:

Why can I load 147 grain Hornady, Precision Delta, Remington HP, Remington FMJ Winchester FMJ with no problems........

 

 

Do you have an accuracy or supply problems with the other bullets you listed?

 

When I was in college, a professor mentioned a common phrase that seems to fit here as well. I mentioned, that my shoulder hurt when I made a certain movement..... he simply said  "stop doing that"

 

If the bullets you mentioned work perfect in your gun, why not just stick with them?   The PD bullets are less expensive than the MG bullets you mentioned too.  

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Posted (edited)

Back the crimp off and start over.

Over crimping actually can / will make the bullets looser.

 

Edited by AHI

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SO THE PROBLEM IS FEDERAL BRASS!

 

I have hundreds of Federal and PMC once fired cases I got from somewhere and decided to load them up. The Federals all have the setback problem.

Occasionally the other bullets setback too but almost all Montana Gold 147's would push back in the Federal cases.

In 25+ years or reloading I did not know that Federal pistol brass was known to be thinner. Searching on BE forums taught me this.

 

I reloaded ~ 500 FC96 headstamp NATO GI cases and did not have such a problem. Federal commercial headstamp did me in.

 

The Federals will be used for .356 coated Eggleston bullets.

 

Thank you for your suggestions.

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1) As stated, too much crimp will loosen the bullet. Just remove the case mouth flare (~0.358" at the case mouth)

2) Some cases have walls that are simply too thin. Rather than order an undersize sizer, I simply toss them.

3) Do a push test on the seated bullet and then again on the crimped round.

4) I love MG bullets, but they priced themselves out of my reach, when I can get PD and Zero for less.

5) I love 0.357" jacketed bullets in all my 9mm guns.

6) If you still have the other bullets that you were successful with, try them with your current set-up just to see if the set-up is still as good for them. I simply can't imagine MG being an issue and the others not.

7) Always do a finger/thumb push test on all 9mm rounds, as the 9mm as a wide range of case walls from various manufacturers. Should do it on all rounds, but 9mm seems to be very worst in terms of case variation.

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1 minute ago, noylj said:

1) As stated, too much crimp will loosen the bullet. Just remove the case mouth flare (~0.358" at the case mouth) GOOD ADVICE.

2) Some cases have walls that are simply too thin. Rather than order an undersize sizer, I simply toss them. BAD ADVICE. FC BRASS IS EVERYWHERE AND IS GREAT BRASS. UDIE IS MUCH CHEAPER THAN TOSSING GOOD BRASS.

7) Always do a finger/thumb push test on all 9mm rounds, as the 9mm as a wide range of case walls from various manufacturers. Should do it on all rounds, but 9mm seems to be very worst in terms of case variation. EXACTLY WHY A UDIE IS INVALUABLE WHEN LOADING 9MM.

 

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I have only found the rare case that has walls too thin and FC has not been one of them, ever.Almost all are foreign and one was RP. I don't need an undersized die, I need to eliminate that one in 1000 or even rarer case that I pick up at the range with absurdly thin walls. I think I might throw out one or two cases every couple of years. No big deal. If you are finding a lot of FC cases that can't hold the bullet, then a good sizing die is the answer (where you might complain to the die manufacturer)--where a u-die with minimal chamfer on the carbide would be a decent choice as you KNOW it will be sized better than the sizing die you have.

Almost all my sizing dies are Lee or Hornady. These two brands size a bit lower than the others and work very well. The Hornady sizes a bit easier, but it also costs more and, with my 1050s, I really don't notice the sizing effort.

Alternatively, if you shoot JACKETED bullets, you can simply lightly chamfer the case mouth inside and out, as you should do for every case ONCE, and seat the bullet with just a little case mouth flare, if any. For this, I find a Hornady seating die works great, as it has a sleeve that helps to keep the bullet aligned to some extent. Don't try with lead or plated.

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1 hour ago, noylj said:

 

6) If you still have the other bullets that you were successful with, try them with your current set-up just to see if the set-up is still as good for them. I simply can't imagine MG being an issue and the others not.

 

It is interesting to ponder. 

I think Sarge might be onto something in his first post. If mg's are indeed a harder alloy then you would expect that they are less compressible and possibly could have a significantly different coefficient of friction. 

I assume, but do not know, that compression of the bullet is a factor in how well it can be held in the case. 

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8 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

It is interesting to ponder. 

I think Sarge might be onto something in his first post. If mg's are indeed a harder alloy then you would expect that they are less compressible and possibly could have a significantly different coefficient of friction. 

I assume, but do not know, that compression of the bullet is a factor in how well it can be held in the case. 

Add to that, my batch from MG last year the bullets miked at .3545. So they are hard and sometimes possibly potentially slightly undersized. Add those variables to known thin case walled brass=Setback.

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