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Tanders

Single Stack Minor Taking Over?

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Seems like everytime I check the results for a match, the Single Stack winner is shooting minor.  Whereas in the past it was something of a toss-up, it looks like minor is starting to be the go-to choice anytime the stages are designed to be shot by both hi-cap and low-cap shooters (sectionals, area matches, etc.).  The only notable exception seems to be Nationals, probably because the stages are designed with 8 rounds in mind.  Anybody else noticing this?  Is the flexibility in stage plans really enough to overcome major scoring?  Love to hear from some SS GMs who have "swung both ways."

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Want to avoid major scoring, just learn to shoot. Then you wouldnt need it.

 

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SS used to be the only division where it wasn't completely idiotic to shoot minor if major was an option.  Just curious if anybody else is noticing a shift toward minor.

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In IPSC Classic Division, Major might have a slight edge because rules stipulate lots of "Short" stages (12 rounds, most often). USPSA has lots of long stages, Right? That would favor the slightly higher mag capacity of Minor.

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3 hours ago, Tanders said:

Seems like everytime I check the results for a match, the Single Stack winner is shooting minor.  Whereas in the past it was something of a toss-up, it looks like minor is starting to be the go-to choice anytime the stages are designed to be shot by both hi-cap and low-cap shooters (sectionals, area matches, etc.).  The only notable exception seems to be Nationals, probably because the stages are designed with 8 rounds in mind.  Anybody else noticing this?  Is the flexibility in stage plans really enough to overcome major scoring?  Love to hear from some SS GMs who have "swung both ways."

Yes, Noticed same thing.

I'm just to hard headed to shoot minor, since every time I've tried it my match percentage is lower than what it normally is with major.

You do have to be more visually patient with steel when shooting major.

You are also able to go harder on half and angled targets as Charlie's don't effect your HF nearly as much.

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A friend of mine used to take 2 sets of 40 Cal ammo to majors for SS. 1 for major and 1 for minor. He'd make a decision after walking the stages. I think he mostly leans minor these days when he's not shooting Limited.

It really all comes down to how the stages are laid out. Major has advantage with a lot of partials.

Personally I think that's the most interesting thing about Single Stack as a division is it's really the only one where there is parity between major/minor and you have to balance an interesting trade off.

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Well I have a great 45 SS gun, very accurate and runs 100%.  I love how it feels and handles.

I have a great 9mm SS gun, super accurate and runs 100%.  It doesn't feel as good as the 45 (need to do a full front strap checkering job on it and it will) but I shoot it so much better than the 45.  The only problem with SS, for me, is I'm still reloading a SS.  Which has always been slower for me?

So if I shoot SS I plan on going to the 9.  Though I do love seeing those big holes in a target thanks to the HG 68 bullets!  The 45 just costs more to shoot too.

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It is kind of interesting that SS minor allows you to make a more direct comparison with Production.  I have started combining the divisions whenever I check results just for kicks and giggles.

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3 hours ago, Tanders said:

It is kind of interesting that SS minor allows you to make a more direct comparison with Production.  I have started combining the divisions whenever I check results just for kicks and giggles.

It's not just SS minor and Production, you can combine more. The divisions can be grouped in roughly four clusters:

 

1. Revolver

2. Production, Limited, Limited 10, Single Stack

3. Carry Optics

4. Open, PCC

 

Within those clusters the results are comparable (variance between shooters is much larger than variance between divisions).

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You would put Limited and Production in the same group?  When you couple the dumb stage plans Production guys are forced to do with the major PF scoring advantage Limited has, I have a hard time seeing Limited not coming out on top by at least 10-15%.  What about grouping Limited and CO together?

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Tanders said:

When you couple the dumb stage plans Production guys are forced to do with the major PF scoring advantage Limited has, I have a hard time seeing Limited not coming out on top by at least 10-15%

Major PF is not free, you need more recoil control. Most reloads can be made on the move so they do not affect overall time that much. Sure Limited has advantage over Production, but my point is that it's not that big of an advantage. At least in the middle of the pack where most mortals are. Things can be different at the very top.

15 hours ago, Tanders said:

What about grouping Limited and CO together?

There's more gap between Limited and CO than between Production and Limited. Here are cumulative distribution functions of overall stage percent by division (sorry for spaghetti plot, that's the only way I found to make the differences visible):

 

hoa.png

Edited by lstange
typo

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You used plots, so now you have my undivided attention!  What do you have on your y-axis and where did you get your data?  Club matches or majors?  I've always wanted to see different divisional scores represented this way!

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1 hour ago, lstange said:

It's not just SS minor and Production, you can combine more. The divisions can be grouped in roughly four clusters:

 

1. Revolver

2. Production, Limited, Limited 10, Single Stack

3. Carry Optics

4. Open, PCC

 

Within those clusters the results are comparable (variance between shooters is much larger than variance between divisions).

combine LImited with carry optics and i think you're a little more accurate in your grouping.

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As someone that shoots a lot of SS minor (several Nats, Pan American, World Shoot, etc), my estimation is Major has a slight to somewhat advantage at major matches where the shooting is generally tougher with less A-zone available and plenty of places to reload.  

 

I can shoot a major gun as fast as a minor gun, so the only difference is points and capacity.  The points win over capacity nearly every time.  It's why Open still mostly beats PCC even with an extra reload.  SS major, maybe does one extra reload per stage versus a SS minor gun.

 

You can go faster and shoot more on the move if C's only hurt half as much.  Drop 5 Charlies on a 5-factor stage and the major shooter can be a second behind and is still even score-wise.

 

So why do I shoot minor?  Because major single stack beats my hands up too much.  I'm old and decrepit ;)

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Do you find that hoser stages are easier with one or the other?  Also, do you get forced into planned standing reloads more often shooting major?

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4 hours ago, rowdyb said:

combine LImited with carry optics and i think you're a little more accurate in your grouping.

There's a CO guy who dunks on everyone else in my section pretty regularly, so I always have a hard time accurately comparing CO and Limited.  Which one do you think comes out on top?

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Posted (edited)

i think it is shooter dependent, that's how close they are. and why i would join them together far far sooner than Lim and Prod!?!

 

Look at overalls for section and area matches (not your locals). When do you ever see the Prod, L10 or SS winner ahead of the CO or Lim winner??

Edited by rowdyb

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6 hours ago, Tanders said:

What do you have on your y-axis

Y axis is proportion of results that are less than or equal to what's on the X axis.

6 hours ago, Tanders said:

What do you have on your y-axis and where did you get your data?  Club matches or majors?

A sample of recent matches pulled from uspsa.org, regardless of whether they are local or major.

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Wow... Production and Single Stack are right on top of one another.  I would have thought that Production would be a bit further to the right just because the talent pool is usually a bit deeper in Production.  I'm also really surprised that CO does as well as the plot shows given the minor scoring.  I love that kind of data!

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