LuckyDucky Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 Is placement in a class calculated relative to the division, including higher classes, or relative to the class including only members of the same class in that division? It can create different placement results either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 By division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 The division as a whole. Relative to the 100% benchmark of whomever was high overall, the first place in B class is the B-shooter who shot the highest percentage of his score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyDucky Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 The division as a whole. Relative to the 100% benchmark of whomever was high overall, the first place in B class is the B-shooter who shot the highest percentage of his score.So that person is not really always first relative to the B shooters. Where in the rules does it state class ranking is relative to division? If I'm technically competing relative to other B shooters, shouldn't my score be relative to the B shooters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robchavous Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 So that person is not really always first relative to the B shooters. Where in the rules does it state class ranking is relative to division? If I'm technically competing relative to other B shooters, shouldn't my score be relative to the B shooters?Nowhere in the rules does it state you're just competing against other B class shooters. The rules only dictate that each division be scored separately and independently and that a winner for each be recognized. 6.2.1Matches aren't required to recognize "class wins"Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 Just now, robchavous said: Nowhere in the rules does it state you're just competing against other B class shooters. The rules only dictate that each division be scored separately and independently and that a winner for each be recognized. 6.2.1 Matches aren't required to recognize "class wins" Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk Then maybe we should just do away with the classification system. And I mean that seriously. I'm neither in favor nor against class awards, but if you're not going to have them what's even the point of a classification system. I came from a shooting sport where class wins (and cash in big tourneys) is a thing. But now I don't miss them and I don't even use the "results by class" feature in Practiscore. Unless I'm missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 34 minutes ago, LuckyDucky said: So that person is not really always first relative to the B shooters. Where in the rules does it state class ranking is relative to division? If I'm technically competing relative to other B shooters, shouldn't my score be relative to the B shooters? Mister awesome GM comes along at a major match with thousands of hours of practice and crushes everyone because he’s put in the work. The B class shooter who comes the closest to catching him is the best guy in B-class on that day. I’m not sure how you’re going to come back with a reply that can dispute that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robchavous Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 Then maybe we should just do away with the classification system. And I mean that seriously. I'm neither in favor nor against class awards, but if you're not going to have them what's even the point of a classification system. I came from a shooting sport where class wins (and cash in big tourneys) is a thing. But now I don't miss them and I don't even use the "results by class" feature in Practiscore. Unless I'm missing something?I don't think the 2 things have to be intrinsically linked. You can have a classification system so that people not competing at lvl 2 and 3 matches have some sort of metric to track progess and also give some sort of an idea of the skill of shooters that you don't regularly compete against. Then on actual match day only those match results matter. It doesn't matter what letter is next to your name only how well you shoot vs everyone else in your division. Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyDucky Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 Having the scores relative to division introduces an element of chance to the class rankings. Your overall score depends on how you did relative to the division winner, not your fellow class members.It doesn't make sense.Rule 6.4.2 and appendix A2 do reference class awards/recognition. But nothing says how to score classes. If classes aren't competing and it is simply a progression metric for the amateurs, why would classes be recognized and awarded at matches? If they are recognized and awarded, they should be scored relative to each other so there is not an element of chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, LuckyDucky said: Having the scores relative to division introduces an element of chance to the class rankings. Your overall score depends on how you did relative to the division winner, not your fellow class members. It doesn't make sense. Rule 6.4.2 and appendix A2 do reference class awards/recognition. But nothing says how to score classes. If classes aren't competing and it is simply a progression metric for the amateurs, why would classes be recognized and awarded at matches? If they are recognized and awarded, they should be scored relative to each other so there is not an element of chance. 20 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said: Mister awesome GM comes along at a major match with thousands of hours of practice and crushes everyone because he’s put in the work. The B class shooter who comes the closest to catching him is the best guy in B-class on that day. I’m not sure how you’re going to come back with a reply that can dispute that fact. Lucky, Memphis nailed it here. You are the best d class shooter in the match against everyone in the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 I had to hide a post. Let's play nice, kids... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robchavous Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Having the scores relative to division introduces an element of chance to the class rankings. Your overall score depends on how you did relative to the division winner, not your fellow class members.It doesn't make sense.Rule 6.4.2 and appendix A2 do reference class awards/recognition. But nothing says how to score classes. If classes aren't competing and it is simply a progression metric for the amateurs, why would classes be recognized and awarded at matches? If they are recognized and awarded, they should be scored relative to each other so there is not an element of chance.Pulling out every single class in every single division into it's own separate match would dilute everything down. To the point that the 1 GM or M who came out that day beating out say 50 other people, but b/c everyone is in there own match he can't be recognized because there isn't actually an overall division anymore.The divisions are the individual matches. It doesn't get broken down any further for scoring. The culture in the US is to go down the overall list and recognize class/categories (and the rulebook basically has guidelines for how to do that if the match chooses to). These are basically participation trophies that IPSC doesn't bother with. Personally I think we do it as a way to appease the masses. People like being told they've "won" something. Most people who shoot uspsa will probably never win a match and recognizing classes is a way to keep them paying dues and coming to big matches.Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyDucky Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 Pulling out every single class in every single division into it's own separate match would dilute everything down. To the point that the 1 GM or M who came out that day beating out say 50 other people, but b/c everyone is in there own match he can't be recognized because there isn't actually an overall division anymore.The divisions are the individual matches. It doesn't get broken down any further for scoring. The culture in the US is to go down the overall list and recognize class/categories (and the rulebook basically has guidelines for how to do that if the match chooses to). These are basically participation trophies that IPSC doesn't bother with. Personally I think we do it as a way to appease the masses. People like being told they've "won" something. Most people who shoot uspsa will probably never win a match and recognizing classes is a way to keep them paying dues and coming to big matches.Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using TapatalkNothing would change except the occasional placement trophy/prize would go to a different person.If I face you 1 on 1 and beat you, then I'm "better" than you. But then you throw Max Michel in there and because by chance our performances relative to him worked out that you were better than me relative to him, now you're better?Doing away with class recognition makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robchavous Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Nothing would change except the occasional placement trophy/prize would go to a different person.If I face you 1 on 1 and beat you, then I'm "better" than you. But then you throw Max Michel in there and because by chance our performances relative to him worked out that you were better than me relative to him, now you're better?Doing away with class recognition makes more sense.I 100% support doing away with class recognition at matches.Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, robchavous said: I 100% support doing away with class recognition at matches. Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk I’d rather do that than give everyone their own special cuddly little match. If you shoot in Production as an Aclass or Bclass, your goal is to do as well as you can against the other 47 production shooters. That is fun. Much more fun than comparing yourself to five other guys who aren’t that good in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 1 hour ago, LuckyDucky said: If I face you 1 on 1 and beat you, then I'm "better" than you. But then you throw Max Michel in there and because by chance our performances relative to him worked out that you were better than me relative to him, now you're better? Your 60-to-75% B-class percentage is based relative to Max's 100% classifier score, or someone like him. Bottom line the other guy scored more stage and match points than you did. Chapter 9 of the rules is pretty black and white that scores are ranked by division and that's it. Quote 9.2.5 Stage results must rank competitors within the relevant Division in descending order of individual stage points achieved, calculated to 4 decimal places.9.2.6 Match results must rank competitors within the relevant Division in descending order of the combined total of individual stage points achieved, calculated to 4 decimal places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Nothing would change except the occasional placement trophy/prize would go to a different person.If I face you 1 on 1 and beat you, then I'm "better" than you. But then you throw Max Michel in there and because by chance our performances relative to him worked out that you were better than me relative to him, now you're better?Doing away with class recognition makes more sense.What? You are ranked per match in the division. If you beat the other guy in the match it doesn't matter if it's relative to Max or not, you still beat the other guy that match. Now that other guy might "win" a particular class in that division and you might not "win" your class in your division at all. But for the match, you still beat the other guy that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 I love classes, i occasionally get a coupon reduced match fee for a class win. So shut up with the no classes BS, i WANT MY COUPON!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 1 hour ago, LuckyDucky said: Doing away with class recognition makes more sense. 100% agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 2 hours ago, ChuckS said: I had to hide a post. Let's play nice, kids... don't make me dq you again..... lol, seriously, thanks for helping keep these forums civil, chuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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