Discussion With Mike Valentine about Steel Challenge

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, nso123 said:

How would you go about consolidating the peak times in this division?  For example, there is an 8 second difference between peak times in SS and Limited with all stages combined.  It seems that someone who shoots low C in SS would be at a pretty big disadvantage to someone who shoots high C in Limited. I know that there is probably not much difference with those shooters in M or GM, but to the everyday shooter who is just average it seems like it could hurt.

 

i don't really care about the class thing. worse shooters are always at a big disadvantage to better shooters.

 

I would guess the difference in peak times is probably because serious people don't generally enter SS, even if shooting a 1911. I sure don't. And I'm clearly faster with a 1911 than with my limited gun because of the weight. fwiw, I appear to shoot the exact same times with my production gun and my 1911. I've always entered limited with both. With no pf and no capacity advantage, it's dumb to have so many divisions.  Iron-sights center-fire. Done.

[GunBugBit]

There are other factors that make revolvers and 2011s shoot differently, that aren't acknowledged in the conversation about rimfire vs centerfire, or optics vs irons.  A good 1911 and 2011 aren't as different, so Single Stack and Limited could be collapsed into one division without too much fuss.  Since in our computerized age it's not that difficult to gather and manage data, the many divisions will probably stay with us.  It'd be more effort to merge divisions than to keep them how they are.

[Nolan]

On 7/8/2019 at 11:26 AM, ezra650 said:

I have shot many more than a couple of matches. Are you confusing my opinion with Valentine's? 

 

Division Consolidation: Nobody wants to show up to major match or local match for that matter and only have a handful of people to shoot against, because everyone has their own little pet division they want to shoot and beat the other 5 people in. More competitors in a division increases the competitiveness of the sport and pushes shooters to increase their skill. 

 

I never said anything about prize tables and could give 2 flips about them. Yeah they are cool, but my main concern is my match fee being used to facilitate a well executed match that I can enjoy and participate in.

 

I never mentioned merging limited and production. Some anecdotal evidence I have observed is many production USPSA shooters will register in limited. I saw a handful here shoot 1 or 2 matches in production. Next match shooting the same rigs, they registered in limited... hmmm wonder why. 

 

Your assertion about limited and production being "considerably" different is interesting. Could you provide some clarification on how transitions and grip are different between limited and production eligible guns? I can see valid points about trigger manipulation, especially when requiring DA on first shot, but beyond that you've lost me.

 

 

Relax!! I was replying to Belus, but failed to hit the quote button.

 

As far as your assertion "Nobody wants to show up to a major and only have a handful of people to shoot against"  That is your personal preference and it certainly is not everyone else's.

The only person I shoot against is myself.  If I do better at a match than I did last time, GREAT!  If I didn't, well, time to practice more.  Not everyone is at the match to 'beat someone', or is trying to be the "Champ", some just enjoy the shooting, others do enjoy the competition.  More competitors does not automatically equate to increasing the competitiveness, it just increases the number of shooters. 

 

I would like to try shooting all 13 divisions sometime and if I was younger maybe try doing all 13 in one match.  Having too many divisions (classes) is not a problem for the NHRA, if it has wheels, the NHRA has a class (200+) for it and at some events it doesn't even have to have wheels (snowmobiles).  NHRA Sportsman events sell out with huge numbers of competitors.  The Steel Challenge should be the same way, if it shoots bullets, we have a division for it that doesn't require you to compete against a Top Fuel Dragster with your box stock Hyundai Hi-Point.  OKAY, I kid, I'm not sure we should have a division for Hi-Points! LOL!

 

Shooting a 1911/2011 versus shooting a striker fired Production gun is considerably different for me because I start prepping (pulling) the trigger on a Production gun much earlier in the transition than I do with the much shorter and lighter 1911/2011 trigger pull.  The grip is also considerably different for me, on a Limited gun, my hand is much closer to the bore axis, my strong hand thumb rides the safety with heavy pressure and since I have big hands, the magwell wedges my hand between it and the beavertail solidly.  On a Production gun like a Glock or Springfield XD, not so much....no thumb safety to ride, and no magwell.

[ezra650]

On 7/11/2019 at 6:25 PM, Nolan said:

 

 

Relax!! I was replying to Belus, but failed to hit the quote button.

 

As far as your assertion "Nobody wants to show up to a major and only have a handful of people to shoot against"  That is your personal preference and it certainly is not everyone else's.

The only person I shoot against is myself.  If I do better at a match than I did last time, GREAT!  If I didn't, well, time to practice more.  Not everyone is at the match to 'beat someone', or is trying to be the "Champ", some just enjoy the shooting, others do enjoy the competition.  More competitors does not automatically equate to increasing the competitiveness, it just increases the number of shooters. 

 

I would like to try shooting all 13 divisions sometime and if I was younger maybe try doing all 13 in one match.  Having too many divisions (classes) is not a problem for the NHRA, if it has wheels, the NHRA has a class (200+) for it and at some events it doesn't even have to have wheels (snowmobiles).  NHRA Sportsman events sell out with huge numbers of competitors.  The Steel Challenge should be the same way, if it shoots bullets, we have a division for it that doesn't require you to compete against a Top Fuel Dragster with your box stock Hyundai Hi-Point.  OKAY, I kid, I'm not sure we should have a division for Hi-Points! LOL!

 

Shooting a 1911/2011 versus shooting a striker fired Production gun is considerably different for me because I start prepping (pulling) the trigger on a Production gun much earlier in the transition than I do with the much shorter and lighter 1911/2011 trigger pull.  The grip is also considerably different for me, on a Limited gun, my hand is much closer to the bore axis, my strong hand thumb rides the safety with heavy pressure and since I have big hands, the magwell wedges my hand between it and the beavertail solidly.  On a Production gun like a Glock or Springfield XD, not so much....no thumb safety to ride, and no magwell.

No worries. I was just confused why you might have thought I had little experience.

 

It may be my personal preference, but also one I feel the majority of shooters share. You are right about not everyone being there to beat someone and you are spot on with the shooting against yourself comment. That is one thing I really enjoy about steel because the fixed scoring allows you to do that. Fair point about more competitors not automatically increasing competitiveness, although I do believe it still holds some truth. Does it come into play at a local match? I'd say no, the effect would be more at the larger lvl 2 and 3 matches

 

One option that may be beneficial is moving some of the less shot divisions to category status. You still can cater/advertise to shooters who want to be specific about their gun, but then at larger matches have more competitors in a division. Just a thought. Also a division for hi-points.... that would be... entertaining.. at first haha.

 

The NHRA comparison is apples to oranges. That is an association that has been around a bit longer and receives way more media attention and sponsorship dollars. 

 

With the new upgrades allowed now to productions guns I can't see that enough of a difference in the single action triggers of each to be that opposing. I could see how killing production for steel might dissuade some local shooters from showing up with their plastic fantastic, but if they aren't there to win would they really care? Other than that I don't see much cons to it. I think we could go back forth all day about it. Either way I'm excited to see what the future of steel challenge is.