No Walkthrough for the stage

[rowdyb]

Another perfect example of how people with "real world" on their mind and who use terms like "find, mil, kill" don't understand truly the difference between a sport like event and a training evolution. 

[HoMiE]

If you want to shoot in blind stage type matches, check out the NRA TPC matches. It is more of a multigun type match, but most stages are blind or have a line you are not allowed to go downrange until after you shoot. Then after you finish you help the RO reset. 

[Joe4d]

When I first started shooting, An indoor state IDPA match was run like this... first 5 stages were lights out total darkness. No one allowed on range... Everyone got a group walk through of all 5 stages, with maybe 5 minutes at most per stage,,,, then clear range,,, lights out.  5 shooters had 5 SO's holding an arm .. next 5 stages were lights on basically repeat same stages.
Was my local club, I helped set up,,, we set up stages months out and shot them as a local and painted floor spots so we could set up again. Was a score keeper and ran a few squads before shooting it. Thought it was an AWESOME match.. seems lots of people that shot it thought it was great as well. Won my Division ! 
Left area for a couple years, shot USPSA,,, came home for a couple weeks and same match was running so I signed up,,, shot it as a non local competitor,,, totally bombed,, also notice most of the higher finishers were all locals in pretty much every division. At that point I realized how blatantly unfair this type of match is.
Should be no secret stages in any meaningful match, as they are never ever ever secret for everyone.
Now for a level 1,,, where noone really cares about score ? Yeh these can be great fun.. If someone wants to cheat thats on them,, It can still be fun to shoot stages blind.

[BelRiose]

Rockcastle Shooting Center in Kentucky has run a blind stage in a cave, though I've only shot it at an outlaw multi-gun match, not a USPSA match. They had a non-shooting RO for the stage, and only folks who had already shot could paste.  

 

The two REALLY interesting parts about the stage were that it was shot with a staged weapon, which was a suppressed PCC, and that it was shot in the dark with only a weapon light. It worked about as well as any stage with a staged weapon can, and it was one of the most memorable stages I've ever shot. Prior planning was basically out because between the suppressor and cave's geometry the later shooters had no idea where the targets were based on sound, and I think folks generally kept to the honor system. 

 

So, as others have said, I think a blind stage can be acceptable as "fun" bonus stage if thought and effort is put into planning and safety, but not as a serious competitive stage in a USPSA match.

[ima45dv8]

On 6/27/2019 at 9:11 PM, BelRiose said:

Rockcastle Shooting Center in Kentucky has run a blind stage in a cave, though I've only shot it at an outlaw multi-gun match, not a USPSA match. They had a non-shooting RO for the stage, and only folks who had already shot could paste.  

 

The two REALLY interesting parts about the stage were that it was shot with a staged weapon, which was a suppressed PCC, and that it was shot in the dark with only a weapon light. It worked about as well as any stage with a staged weapon can, and it was one of the most memorable stages I've ever shot. Prior planning was basically out because between the suppressor and cave's geometry the later shooters had no idea where the targets were based on sound, and I think folks generally kept to the honor system. 

 

So, as others have said, I think a blind stage can be acceptable as "fun" bonus stage if thought and effort is put into planning and safety, but not as a serious competitive stage in a USPSA match.

 

I've seen that on TV but never got to shoot it in a match (even "Outlaw").

 

BUT, I was there for an industry event and got to shoot it as a demo stage sponsored by a well-known weapons light manufacturer. 

Freakin' unbelievably fun!

 

Next door was a blind shoot in a dark-house sponsored by a company who makes suppressors and night vision gear. They supplied everything you needed. Also incredibly fun!

 

 

I still don't think it's suitable for a USPSA match.

 

 

[StealthyBlagga]

Reduce the walkthough to 30 seconds - would be like watching the 3 stooges trying to get through a doorway at the same time 

Edited June 30, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[rowdyb]

The shooting tv show I was on twice tried to have us do some truly "blind" shooting and even with their total control it was still difficult to do so.

-we were told where to be and how to be dressed at a certain time. NOTHING about the shooting challenge or even type of gun.

-all of us were dropped off out of visual sight of any of the stage/challenge. though shots could be heard even with ear pro on.

-a person was chosen at random and the rest remained.

-that person was given the instruction and then shot the stage/challenge. no dry fire. no walk through. no air gun.

-after they shot they stayed there and could not talk to the next contestant. next contestant showed up and was given the exact same verbal instruction and not allowed to do anything more or less than the first person.

 

So if you didn't go first you could still hear a gun, discern what kind of gun and generally the amount of shooting as most of it was limited in number of shots. So even with a high level of control it still isn't fair across a group of shooters.

 

Once again, as I've said this over and over, how do you want to test people? Do you want them to take a math test while you turn the lights off and on, mess with the AC and make them do it while using a calculator they've never used before. OR.... do you want to just make the questions hard and let everyone take the test without all the other outside, non-math, distractions? I prefer the latter.

[KellyB]

Reduce the walkthough to 30 seconds - would be like watching the 3 stooges trying to get through a doorway at the same time 

This is getting closer to reality as walk thru times get shorter & squads get bigger. 4 minute walk thru for a 12-14 person squad.

[Kiwishoot]

Have done this as a club match, the stage was around the corner up a hill so no-one could see it. Each shooter would walk up to the stage, shoot, then stay up there to help reset. After a while everyone who had shot was sitting around and laughing/encouraging when folks kept missing/not finding targets.

 

For fun, it certainly was. For competition, not a hope.

[Nevadazielmeister]

Thanks to most of you for your ideas and assistance. 

 

I was thinking of this format:

 

 -Stage would be at the end of the line of stages, if possible. You would restrict access to this stage with roping or caution tape. Explain that no shooters allowed past a certain point. 

 -As the squad comes forth, they are held as a group at the staging area and the first shooter is brought forth by the RO with the understanding the number of targets there are, say 10 for example. No steel, no 180 traps, nothing super tricky. 

 -Once the course of fire has been run, the shooter and the RO score and tape. The finished shooter is then instructed to go into a corner and not speak with anyone else, but can watch the next shooter.

 -As the group grows, the fun increases as everyone watches with anticipation of the current shooter possibly making the same mistakes they made during their course of fire. 

 -Once the squad has completed the stage, they are asked to not share the stage layout or discuss the stage with any other squad as they proceed back to the other end of the line of bays. Other RO's and Squad leaders can be tasked to look out for sharing of information. 

 

This seems very doable and am not sure it would place any unfair advantage between friends. 

 

Thoughts?

[Nevadazielmeister]

On 6/27/2019 at 7:50 AM, rowdyb said:

Another perfect example of how people with "real world" on their mind and who use terms like "find, mil, kill" don't understand truly the difference between a sport like event and a training evolution. 

 

Yes, a perfect example of how some people assume they know what other people know, when they don't know anything about the person they are commenting about. Right?

[RJH]

23 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

Thanks to most of you for your ideas and assistance. 

 

I was thinking of this format:

 

 -Stage would be at the end of the line of stages, if possible. You would restrict access to this stage with roping or caution tape. Explain that no shooters allowed past a certain point. 

 -As the squad comes forth, they are held as a group at the staging area and the first shooter is brought forth by the RO with the understanding the number of targets there are, say 10 for example. No steel, no 180 traps, nothing super tricky. 

 -Once the course of fire has been run, the shooter and the RO score and tape. The finished shooter is then instructed to go into a corner and not speak with anyone else, but can watch the next shooter.

 -As the group grows, the fun increases as everyone watches with anticipation of the current shooter possibly making the same mistakes they made during their course of fire. 

 -Once the squad has completed the stage, they are asked to not share the stage layout or discuss the stage with any other squad as they proceed back to the other end of the line of bays. Other RO's and Squad leaders can be tasked to look out for sharing of information. 

 

This seems very doable and am not sure it would place any unfair advantage between friends. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I like it for a level 1.  I say go for it and then give us an honest evaluation afterwards.  I don't think what you are proposing sounds unreasonable, it actually sounds fun to me.  If it don't work, it was just one stage at one match, worse case you can always toss it.

[rowdyb]

4 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Yes, a perfect example of how some people assume they know what other people know, when they don't know anything about the person they are commenting about. Right?

Just another example of using prior experiences, information from myself and others to make a judgement* about a new one. You know, making a considered decision. QTIP, quit taking it personally.

 

noun: judgement

1. 1.

   the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.

Edited July 4, 2019 by rowdyb

[pskys2]

A local club used to have a "Jungle Run" in October every year that was blind.  The course designer had to run and tape first few shooters and then couldn't shoot it himself.

It was ok, but there are always safety issues.

In reality there are very few instances it relates to other than clearing a room by law enforcement.  And even then there is not the time issue of a competition, stress of the unknown for sure.

 

So if you want to be fair while doing it, the guys who set it up or design it can't shoot it.  Kind of takes the fun out wouldn't it?

 

Now another issue kind of related, a club once set up a dark room shoot where we got a limited look at it before hand.  They set it up so some of the targets had T-shirts on the body.  Well most of us shot it as head shots when we saw the T-shirt covering the body.  Didn't have to but it was instinctive to.  Kind of gave the designer/set up an advantage but was still fun.