DQ 10.5.11.1

[ronnied1]

Here is the story. During a competition held last Friday, my colleague, the other RO on the stage, DQ`d a competitor.

As I was on the far left side of the range, i could not see what has actually happened. 

 

so , here is the situation as it was described: following the LMR command, the competitor loaded a round into the chamber as required and then holstered the gun without 

engaging the guns`s safety. The RO called for a DQ under 10.5.11.1 

 

the competitor, appealed for an arbitration.  During the arbitration , the competitor claimed that his hand was still on the gun while he was DQ`d.  as per his undersatnding, he did not finish the LMR

stage, therefore the QD was uncalled for.

 

following some deliberation, the shooter was returned to the competition.

 

I read the rule book again and again and could not find any relation between the safety violation and the position of the hand.

as i understand,  once you holster a loaded gun without engaging the primary safety,  you have earned your DQ regardless of your hand being on or of the gun.

 

please let me know what you think.

 

Ronnie

[Hi-Power Jack]

17 minutes ago, ronnied1 said:

 the competitor loaded a round into the chamber and  holstered without 

engaging the safety.

 

I'm not an RO, but I would think the most dangerous part of holstering

without the safety would be "holstering".  

 

Even if your hand is still on the gun, the most dangerous part of the action

has already taken place - lucky he didn't shoot himself in the leg.

 

Matter of fact, having your hand on the gun makes it even more dangerous

than having the gun sitting in the holster.

 

Let's see what all the RO's think, but seems to me that is a very dangerous,

and therefore DQ'able, offense.     

[bret]

DQ, whether his hand was on the gun or not, he holstered a loaded gun with the safety off.

[Joe4d]

The rule says holstering, not holstered. Assuming a typical locked and cocked single action. Was a DQ once he started the act of holstering.
I assume the hole point of the rule is to have the safety on or gun in its designed safe carry condition before you sweep your self.
If I was the RO I woulda handed the shot timer to one of said deliberators.
This really isnt a grey area discussion rule. Pretty black and white.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, ronnied1 said:

the competitor, appealed for an arbitration.  During the arbitration , the competitor claimed that his hand was still on the gun while he was DQ`d.  as per his undersatnding, he did not finish the LMR

stage, therefore the QD was uncalled for.

 

Sometimes ya just wish you could let folks like this shoot themselves instead of getting drug down into a life sucking battle for trying to keep them from shooting themselves.

 

You can't, and you shouldn't, but a part of you wishes you could.

 

Proper response from competitor would have been "thank you very much, that was really stupid of me, I will be glad to help paste". 

[Part_time_redneck]

Edited June 23, 2019 by Part_time_redneck
Clarification found

[ronnied1]

Gun was completly holstered.  Not near, not inches from.. 

Competitor had his hand on the gun. 

He was not going to do any corrective action. Just buying time before the Beeeep. 

[Part_time_redneck]

Pretty much sums it up. 

[rowdyb]

Dumb move, DQ. Doesn't matter what the competitor's "understanding" of the process and the rules are to making their case. "Well I thought...." is not a strong argument. Hopefully the shooter learned this, learned the correct rule and its implications and is in the process of changing their make ready process, rather than being mad about it.

Edited June 23, 2019 by rowdyb

[mwray]

Should’ve went with the commands and shut him down after “standby”

[moverfive]

Here is WHY this rule is in the rule book:

 

Before today’s modern holsters that are designed for each style of gun, holsters were somewhat generic and thus would be modified if your gun didn’t have that “perfect” fit.

 

Without that perfect fit, the trigger could be pushed back far enough to cause the gun to fire.   Once I saw someone holster a gun, the gun fired, and in recoil jumped up, and the as it came down....fired again.   Three shot rang out before he was able to get the gun out of the holster.

 

So yes, this rule is in play to prevent you from putting a gun in a holster with safety off because once in the holster, you have lost control of the trigger.

[IHAVEGAS]

Hmmm.

Anyone know why the discussion goes beyond 10.5 "Example of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:" ?

 

I can see somebody escalating and possibly even spending $100 if they think that pointing a loaded gun at their body with the safety off is not an example of unsafe gun handling, but I can't see that as a sound argument. 

[Sarge]

Easy DQ call. 

[driver8M3]

14 hours ago, ronnied1 said:

... the competitor, appealed for an arbitration.  During the arbitration , the competitor claimed that his hand was still on the gun while he was DQ`d.  as per his undersatnding, he did not finish the LMR stage, therefore the QD was uncalled for.

 

following some deliberation, the shooter was returned to the competition...

 

I look forward to reading about this arbitration...

 

11.4.2 Disbursement and Disposition –If the Committee’s decision is to uphold the appeal, the fee paid will be returned to the appellant. If the Committee’s decision is to deny the appeal, the appeal fee must be forwarded to NROI. In all cases, the arbitration and decision will be forwarded to NROI. All arbitrations will be posted on the USPSA website.

Edited June 24, 2019 by driver8M3

[bret]

3 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

 

I look forward to reading about this arbitration...

 

11.4.2 Disbursement and Disposition –If the Committee’s decision is to uphold the appeal, the fee paid will be returned to the appellant. If the Committee’s decision is to deny the appeal, the appeal fee must be forwarded to NROI. In all cases, the arbitration and decision will be forwarded to NROI. All arbitrations will be posted on the USPSA website.

Where are they posted?

[driver8M3]

I haven't been able to find them.

[ronnied1]

2 hours ago, driver8M3 said:

 

I look forward to reading about this arbitration...

 

11.4.2 Disbursement and Disposition –If the Committee’s decision is to uphold the appeal, the fee paid will be returned to the appellant. If the Committee’s decision is to deny the appeal, the appeal fee must be forwarded to NROI. In all cases, the arbitration and decision will be forwarded to NROI. All arbitrations will be posted on the USPSA website.

Most probably, you will never read about this arbitration anywhere except here for a few reasons:

1. competition was IPSC

2. competition was regional level 2

[perttime]

The IPSC rule is:

10.5.11 Having a loaded and holstered handgun, in any of the following conditions:
10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the chamber loaded and the safety not applied.

.........

The rules have no explicit definition for "holstered" but there are points like:

.........

8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.

and

12.5 Glossary

Loading...............................  (...) ends when the firearm is securely holstered (or placed elsewhere in accordance with the written stage briefing), and the competitor's hands are clear of the firearm.

.........

So, the firearm can be considered "holstered" even when the hand is still on it.

 

DQ

[waktasz]

100% DQ. 

 

I actually DQ'd someone for this at a match last weekend. I hadn't even noticed he holstered without the safety on (CZ TSO) until he reached down with his weak hand to flick the safety on while it was already in the holster.

 

After the DQ I was talking with him and his buddy and he said that's how he had always done it. 

The good news is they both shot Area 7 yesterday and made it through with no issues. Better to lose the $20 local match fee and learn a lesson than to have to learn it at a Level 3 match 7.5 hours away. 

Edited June 25, 2019 by waktasz

[IHAVEGAS]

9 minutes ago, waktasz said:

After the DQ I was talking with him and his buddy and he said that's how he had always done it. 

 

No words. 

[driver8M3]

You wouldn't want to wear out your safety by having it on for too long. Similarly, you should buckle your seatbelt after reaching your destination. 

[motosapiens]

On 6/23/2019 at 9:37 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

I can see somebody escalating and possibly even spending $100 if they think that pointing a loaded gun at their body with the safety off is not an example of unsafe gun handling, but I can't see that as a sound argument. 

 

Just ask the competitor. Were you holstering your gun? If no, then dq for sweeping. If yes, then dq for holstering gun with safety off. 

 

The only time you are allowed to sweep yourself is when holstering.

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

Just ask the competitor. Were you holstering your gun? If no, then dq for sweeping. If yes, then dq for holstering gun with safety off. 

 

The only time you are allowed to sweep yourself is when holstering.

I like that, good one

[IHAVEGAS]

There are several other examples, and near misses, but I just saw this one from February.

 

https://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/2019/02/01/gun-safety-officer-accidentally-shoots-self-leg-randolph-nj-range/2741533002/