Unloaded PCC table start, hand position not specified in WSB

[Patrick Scott]

Shot a club match yesterday. Stage 3 was an unloaded table start. The WSB did NOT include any instructions for hand/arm placement or ammo placement for handgun or PCC.  It was only stated that the shooter needed to stand behind the table.  Here is my question:

 

Could a PCC shooter be touching his/her gun and/or ammo after "stand by" and before the beep. I know in the rules its a no-no for handgun shooters(8.2.3), but since PCC generally starts while touching the firearm(ie no rule against it) and this particular WSB had no instruction for hand/arm placement, what say you?   

 

FWIW, I did not start touching the gun or magazine. I don't care either way, but as a PCC competitor this is something I would like to know. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Patrick Scott

[motosapiens]

I would say no, because it sounds like cheating. I would also rewrite the wsb so it says 'pcc start hands in pockets'.

[Patrick Scott]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I would say no, because it sounds like cheating. I would also rewrite the wsb so it says 'pcc start hands in pockets'.

I agree it was a poor WSB

[Kraj]

It's pretty clear you can't be touching the ammo, if it isn't stated it has to be in the belt. There use to be a rule that anywhere it said handgun also applied to PCC but I'm not sure if it made it into the new rule book

 

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition,magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices l attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1)

 

 

8.2.3.1 A course of fire must never require or allow a PCC competitor to touch or hold ammunition, loading devices or magazines after the “Standby” command and before the start signal. Fingers must be outside the trigger guard and the safety applied if the carbine is loaded. Start positions may not require the competitor to start facing uprange while holding the carbine.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Kraj
Formating

[Patrick Scott]

5 minutes ago, Kraj said:

It's pretty clear you can't be touching the ammo, if it isn't stated it has to be in the belt. There use to be a rule that anywhere it said handgun also applied to PCC but I'm not sure if it made it into the new rule book

 

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition,magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices l attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1)

 

 

8.2.3.1 A course of fire must never require or allow a PCC competitor to touch or hold ammunition, loading devices or magazines after the “Standby” command and before the start signal. Fingers must be outside the trigger guard and the safety applied if the carbine is loaded. Start positions may not require the competitor to start facing uprange while holding the carbine.

Good call, I forgot about those two. 

[NickBlasta]

If hand placement is not specified it must be written in, the WSB is incomplete. There is no default and it isn't permission to put your hands where you like. RM needs to write a complete WSB.

[Patrick Scott]

25 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

If hand placement is not specified it must be written in, the WSB is incomplete. There is no default and it isn't permission to put your hands where you like. RM needs to write a complete WSB.

"Since the rule change, I have seen many WSBs that specify where the handgun competitors are standing and where their feet are, but the hand position is missing. If you don’t specify a handgun start position, savvy competitors who know the rules can have their hands hovering right above the grip of their pistol. This is now legal, providing they are not touching their handgun or magazine/speed loader, but it usually takes stage designers and MDs by surprise because that is not what they intended."  source-https://nroi.org/stage-design/to-wsb-or-not-to-wsb/

[rowdyb]

^ looks like you answered your own question

[MikeBurgess]

25 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

"Since the rule change, I have seen many WSBs that specify where the handgun competitors are standing and where their feet are, but the hand position is missing. If you don’t specify a handgun start position, savvy competitors who know the rules can have their hands hovering right above the grip of their pistol. This is now legal, providing they are not touching their handgun or magazine/speed loader, but it usually takes stage designers and MDs by surprise because that is not what they intended."  source-https://nroi.org/stage-design/to-wsb-or-not-to-wsb/

I personally like letting shooters do that, I find most end up with a slower draw or worse grip because they have interrupted their normal draw routine. they do it for a perceived advantage but end up hindering themselves. 

[Patrick Scott]

4 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

^ looks like you answered your own question

I dont think so, that document mentions only handguns where there is a rule in place to prevent touching(stand by-beep). No such rule is in place for rifles. I only used that document to highlight the fact that hand position is not required in the WSB. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Patrick Scott

[egd5]

2 hours ago, Kraj said:

 

 

8.2.3.1 A course of fire must never require or allow a PCC competitor to touch or hold ammunition, loading devices or magazines after the “Standby” command and before the start signal. Fingers must be outside the trigger guard and the safety applied if the carbine is loaded. Start positions may not require the competitor to start facing uprange while holding the carbine.

I made bold--- Would it be true then that if the pcc is unloaded the safety does not have to be applied?

[BiknSwans]

56 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

I dont think so, that document mentions only handguns where there is a rule in place to prevent touching(stand by-beep). No such rule is in place for rifles. I only used that document to highlight the fact that hand position is not required in the WSB. 

 

Doesn't Appendix D8 - Pistol Caliber Carbine Division, #15 "Rules References" apply?

 

All references to “handgun” are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where the terms “holstering”, “drawing”, or “re-holstering” are referenced, and where otherwise noted. PCC specific rules are identified within this rules publication. 
 

[Patrick Scott]

31 minutes ago, egd5 said:

I made bold--- Would it be true then that if the pcc is unloaded the safety does not have to be applied?

I would think so. Just like a lot of handguns, a lot of PCC guns wont allow the safety to be applied when in the unloaded hammer down position. 

[Patrick Scott]

5 minutes ago, BiknSwans said:

 

Doesn't Appendix D8 - Pistol Caliber Carbine Division, #15 "Rules References" apply?

 

All references to “handgun” are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where the terms “holstering”, “drawing”, or “re-holstering” are referenced, and where otherwise noted. PCC specific rules are identified within this rules publication. 
 

While I almost agree with you, 8.2.3(if thats what you are talking about) can not apply to PCC.  If you think about it. Table starts are the only(that I can think of) time that a PCC shooters is not touching the firearm in the stand by-to-beep time. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Patrick Scott

[regor]

51 minutes ago, egd5 said:

I made bold--- Would it be true then that if the pcc is unloaded the safety does not have to be applied?

 

Yes, many firearms cannot have the safety applied if the hammer is not cocked. 

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, BiknSwans said:

 

Doesn't Appendix D8 - Pistol Caliber Carbine Division, #15 "Rules References" apply?

 

All references to “handgun” are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where the terms “holstering”, “drawing”, or “re-holstering” are referenced, and where otherwise noted. PCC specific rules are identified within this rules publication. 
 

 

Normally yes, this logic would apply, except that there is a PCC specific rule (8.2.3.1) that applies to touching the gun/ammunition after Standby but before the start signal. 

[rowdyb]

Common sense isn't so common. Godzilla. 1965.

[ATLDave]

Sarcastic applause to HQ for the "great" job with getting the rules nice and tight before rolling out PCC as an official division.  Just brilliant.  No holes at all.  

[Patrick Scott]

[NickBlasta]

On 6/10/2019 at 11:42 AM, Patrick Scott said:

"Since the rule change, I have seen many WSBs that specify where the handgun competitors are standing and where their feet are, but the hand position is missing. If you don’t specify a handgun start position, savvy competitors who know the rules can have their hands hovering right above the grip of their pistol. This is now legal, providing they are not touching their handgun or magazine/speed loader, but it usually takes stage designers and MDs by surprise because that is not what they intended."  source-https://nroi.org/stage-design/to-wsb-or-not-to-wsb/

 

I don't think it means that you can actually do what you want, just that competitors will end up doing what they want because you don't specify. The only rule (and what he says in the previous paragraph) is that you must write a complete WSB or the stage is illegal.

[Patrick Scott]

6 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

I don't think it means that you can actually do what you want, just that competitors will end up doing what they want because you don't specify. The only rule (and what he says in the previous paragraph) is that you must write a complete WSB or the stage is illegal.

As I said before I posted that document just to show that hand/arm placement is not a WSB requirement.  If its not specified and there is no default, then yes do what you want within the rules. For handgun that means whatever you want as long as you are not touching the handgun or ammo source. For PCC that means do what ever you want as long as you are not touching the ammo source. 

[NickBlasta]

11 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

As I said before I posted that document just to show that hand/arm placement is not a WSB requirement.  If its not specified and there is no default, then yes do what you want within the rules. For handgun that means whatever you want as long as you are not touching the handgun or ammo source. For PCC that means do what ever you want as long as you are not touching the ammo source. 

 

" You now have to specify in the WSB a start position (hands, feet, inside/outside shooting area) for handgun and PCC. "

[Patrick Scott]

@NickBlasta  I get that, but how to get past the fact its stated that hovering over the grip is legal when its not specified?  Or that DNROI said a PCC shooter could have been touching the gun when I asked if that was OK when hand position was not specified? 

 

[NickBlasta]

1 hour ago, Patrick Scott said:

@NickBlasta  I get that, but how to get past the fact its stated that hovering over the grip is legal when its not specified?  Or that DNROI said a PCC shooter could have been touching the gun when I asked if that was OK when hand position was not specified? 

 

 

What I got from it is.. if I could rephrase, "You must write a hand position. If you don't, people will do what they want. As hovering their hand right over the gun is a legal start position [if you wrote it in], people will do that [when you wanted them to be "hands at sides"]."