What's your best argument in favor of a PCC?

[MoRivera]

On 6/5/2019 at 9:27 PM, ABQautoxer said:

One thing I don't get because I came into USPSA for PCC is the butt hurt. So many and I do mean many passive aggressive comments about rifles at a pistol match, magazine size, etc from people I've never met before but within two matches I realized the comments had little variety but just a lot of repetition. I have thick skin so I just ignore them as excuses for their performance but I wonder how many people find that to be a turn off or is it that much of a local phenomenon that only I deal with.

I occasionally shoot PCC in local USPSA/IDPA or even steel matches where I know most of the shooters and see them often...so even though I get a small number of sneers and snide comments, it's mostly fun ribbing and pretty understood that it's once in a while and switching things up.  If I'm going to matches that I haven't attended before, I usually start with SSP or Production to just sort of 'feel it out'.  There are a few matches I shoot often where I know a PCC just wouldn't be 'welcomed', even though I like all the folks I shoot with, so I don't shoot it there and I'm not really looking to be some bringer of change or what have you.  Some places may even sneer a bit at carry optics, but again more like busting chops amongst friends.

 

So again, I shoot enough local matches with enough familiarity to mix the PCC in here and there, and there are even PCC-themed plate shoots and matches sprinkled in.  I still mainly want to get as good as I can with Irons, with optics and PCC being a nice bonus every now and then.

Edited June 7, 2019 by MoRivera

[ABQautoxer]

30 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

I occasionally shoot PCC in local USPSA/IDPA or even steel matches where I know most of the shooters and see them often...so even though I get a small number of sneers and snide comments, it's mostly fun ribbing and pretty understood that it's once in a while and switching things up.  If I'm going to matches that I haven't attended before, I usually start with SSP or Production to just sort of 'feel it out'.  There are a few matches I shoot often where I know a PCC just wouldn't be 'welcomed', even though I like all the folks I shoot with, so I don't shoot it there and I'm not really looking to be some bringer of change or what have you.  Some places may even sneer a bit at carry optics, but again more like busting chops amongst friends.

 

So again, I shoot enough local matches with enough familiarity to mix the PCC in here and there, and there are even PCC-themed plate shoots and matches sprinkled in.  I still mainly want to get as good as I can with Irons, with optics and PCC being a nice bonus every now and then.

Like you, I don't think it's meant to be truly rude or harassment. However, its so strange as a new person that it's so persistent. I came from car racing where they introduced new classes and new people running that were not ribbed like this at all. I certainly see teasing comments about anyone running SS and L10 but its much more friend to friend instead of stranger to stranger. 

 

That said, the amount of things I learned in my first 6 USPSA matches in terms of PCC articulation for various ports, leans, etc is amazing. The things that just were so hard to deal with at the first event are so much easier now and I wonder if some of those that move on don't put the effort in to work those.

 

 

[ADulay]

On 6/4/2019 at 4:27 PM, ChuckS said:

Yup, it's fun.  And if it annoys certain people, even more fun.

Yep.  Correct on both counts for sure.

 

Hard to beat the FUN factor though.

 

AD

 

[IHAVEGAS]

Just finished working a level 2 with 300+ shooters, figured I would attempt to make some relevant current observations.

For what it is worth;

1. If the timers are set to catch quiet pcc guns they absolutely will pick up open guns in the next bay and potentially other random noises. Saved a couple guys from getting a second or two added by using Sarges trick of making a mental note of the time of the last shot. No matter what you are shooting, if the r.o. is not reading the timer at the last shot and the timers are set for pcc, then some shooters will probably get more time than they earned. 

2. There are more delays due to jams and etc.  Not a big deal but if you see a whole pcc squad coming you know it will take longer to get them through the stage. 

3. Any time a pcc shooter wants a reshoot all they have to do is dash uprange and then make a quick dash downrange and fire one shot. I was able to catch up to 3 fast guys who forgot targets in time but it was close and if they did it deliberately they would win that game, many r.o.'s would not have been able to catch back up to the three guys so either they would have been required to reshoot or would have gotten away with shots off the clock.  

4. It is easier to score as they have most hits toward the center of the A zone. 

 

[Bwillis]

@IHAVEGAS what stage were you ro on? And that’s odd because my squad had 5 pcc shooters, 2 carry optics, 1 production, 2 open, and 1 limited. I was in 311 and we were the first squad done on Sunday. I also know the only pcc malfunction in our squad came from someone with to long oal and had to shoot out his last round to show clear. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Bwillis

[IHAVEGAS]

4

 

Really the delays were not a thing, just an observation why I was at it, one guy did have his mag sort of hand grenade with bits flying about which was interesting. I don't think you can judge timing by when a squad finished the match, there is no leap frogging of stages and there were squads of different sizes, but again it was really not a thing so much as just an observation. 

[Bwillis]

@IHAVEGAS I was shooting a different stage within 40 min max of ending the previous stage, the fastest turn bring 28 min. Thats with a squad of 11 max possible was12. We also had to wait for minimum 3 shooters in squad 301 that we caught on the last 4 stages. The mentioned squad was heavy on production/co/Ss. 

 

I only make these points as a open discussion to your 2nd point. We had the most pcc shooters in a squad the only pcc malfunction was to long oal. He had to shoot out the last round to show clear. Another open shooter was had  extraction issues on 5 stages,  malfunction can happen to any gun not just pcc. 

 

I think it might have something to do more with skill of shooter for how fast they turn stages and how well they maintenance the gun. But saying a heavy stacked squad of pcc shooters slows everyone down is a blanket statement. 

 

your point 3 that can happen with any class. If deliberate I would consider that a character flaw. 

 

I like Ike your 4th point!!

 

i had fun shooting the match and thank you again for being a ro.

 

your stage was ending stage 3 at 11:26 shooting stage 4 at 12:00 and stage 5 at 12:35

again with 5 pcc shooters out of 11 max squad was 12. That’s really good considering you had the 44 round stage. 

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, Bwillis said:

I think it might have something to do more with skill of shooter for how fast they turn stages and how well they maintenance the gun. But saying a heavy stacked squad of pcc shooters slows everyone down is a blanket statement. 

 

I also think that it is something that has improved over time, folks are figuring out what equipment works and tend to be standing in position with the gun when they are up instead of fiddling around over at the bag/unbag area. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by IHAVEGAS
bag

[Bwillis]

19 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I also think that it is something that has improved over time, folks are figuring out what equipment works and tend to be standing in position with the gun when they are up instead of fiddling around over at the load/unload area. 

 

I agree 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Bwillis

[motosapiens]

On 6/6/2019 at 11:50 AM, Bwillis said:

Pcc advantage what a joke, slower transitions, minor scoring, higher height over bore, Wider leans around corners. I’m curious at to what advantages pcc does have over open? Long shots is all I can think of I’ll give you that one. 

 

the main advantage is that people who don't practice can still hit stuff, so they have *fun*, instead of being discouraged by how much they suck due to lack of practice.

 

I personally have no issue with pcc other than it has changed what stages look like at pretty much every match.

[Bwillis]

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

the main advantage is that people who don't practice can still hit stuff, so they have *fun*, instead of being discouraged by how much they suck due to lack of practice.

 

I personally have no issue with pcc other than it has changed what stages look like at pretty much every match.

 

The not hitting stuff unless they practice could be said for open and carry optics. Imo without practice you won’t get far in any division. 

 

If pcc has changed stages where you shoot, thats on match directors and whoever designs the stage.

 

 The problem I see and the banter about to directed toward pcc is from people who don’t shoot pcc. In which they shouldn’t care because you don’t shoot against different divisions. 

 

 

[dravz]

My primary reason is I'm able to practice with the PCC to improve rifle skills, primarily using steel that would be too close to shoot with a full power rifle.

 

It also takes the edge off pistol burnout, gives me something new and fun to practice with. 

[SWprotected]

As far as the OP's inquiry I think PCC's are great for just going out and having a fun day on the range. I also think an AR9 pistol would make a great HD gun. As far as shooting matches I have 3 of them and have only shot one match with a PCC and it was an all carbine match, and yes it was fun.

As far as USPSA goes we all know what the P stands for but our matches were run under the handgun rulebook. I have been back and forth over whether or not they should be included in matches not that my opinion means much. I have seen changes in stage design since the introduction of PCC to our sport. I am a pretty well traveled shooter so it is not a local issue, but that seems to be getting better as we become more used to having PCC's in our matches. One of the guys I shoot with on a regular basis was an early convert to PCC and it does seem that he genuinely has a greater passion for shooting since he made the switch. Seeing this is why I really don't give it much thought any more because we do this to have a good time, and if shooting PCC makes you happy then go for it.

As far as HOA, I hear people say you only compete against your division all the time. I also see and hear the bragging about HOA when results are posed on PS. I guess we each have our own reasons for shooting, and what divisions we choose to shoot. I shoot Open and limited because I like shooting a pistol and 2011s are cool, but the next match I am signed up to shoot PCC just for a little variety!

[VU2AKILL]

        I cannot believe how much fun my MPX is to shoot.  I have shot a couple steel matches with it and it makes me smile every time i shoot it.  I have not done a USPSA with it though solely because of how people treat me when I am shooting it.  I usually shoot the carry ops division and regularly beat the same guys who call my PCC a "cheater gun".  What i dont understand is why people even care.  PCC is its own class and there should be no comparison between a PCC and a pistol other than they are both super fun to run on a USPSA style course.  And anyone who shoots a PCC and then gloats about how high up the overall they are is just as bad as the guys bashing on them.  Shooters need to support other shooters.  Bring a legal gun to a match, shoot it in the division it fits in and just have a good time!!  

[ParaGunner]

On 6/6/2019 at 6:19 AM, avastcosmicarena said:

Check this out. New chassis for the PC9 

 

That's f'ing awesome. Been what waiting for a company to come out with a pistol grip stop for my Ruger. 

[Parrott14]

I’m built my PCC to the same specs as my .223 3 gun rifle.   The only difference is a red dot vs a magnified optic.   Shooting uspsa gives me excellent practice for transitions and going in and coming out of ports as well as manipulating my rifle around walls and through doors.   

[Ontos]

On 6/6/2019 at 12:36 PM, Sarge said:

Yeah it's everywhere. We still let out a huge sigh of relief when there are no PCC on our squad!

 

Because that matters.... why, exactly?

[Ontos]

On 6/6/2019 at 12:50 PM, Bwillis said:

 

Try again max beat  vlieger by 4% at Magnus cup and was 2.16 percent off baker’s % . So far youre 0 for 2 in just this thread 

 

Pcc advantage what a joke, slower transitions, minor scoring, higher height over bore, Wider leans around corners. I’m curious at to what advantages pcc does have over open? Long shots is all I can think of I’ll give you that one. 

 

I think there’s a definite advantage to PCC in the C-B Class range.  However, when you get into the A-M-GM range and you’re comparing PCC shooters to Open shooters with sufficient skill level to take advantage of things like transition time, the advantages progressively fade away as you are saying. 

[Ontos]

On 6/7/2019 at 2:40 PM, Sarge said:

Then my original thought stands. They are a GREAT House gun. Quieter, less worry about killing neighbors, cheaper to stay in practice with. Full on 5.56 still has its uses but a PCC does too. I LOVE PCC, for home defense.

 

In reality, most 5.56 is actually going to penetrate *less* than handgun calibers in a typical drywall and stick build residential structure. 

 

See where American LE has largely abandoned sub guns in favor of M4’s over the past couple of decades? That’s a big part of the reason why. 

[Nathanb]

You got any data to support that? I’d like to read it

[Bwillis]

@Ontos you’re going to trigger a certain someone. He will abandon the debate when he is wrong, reverting to derogatory name calling. Then the mods will say persons are at fault when the thread is locked. Some grown men can handle a intellectual discussion “certain people” can’t. I choose to not enter this argument in a public forum so I don’t offend the sensitive....again 

[Patrick Scott]

18 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

You got any data to support that? I’d like to read it

Not data per say, but a good read.

http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07/14/why-high-powered-5-56-nato-223-ar-15-ammo-is-safer-for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

1 hour ago, Ontos said:

 

In reality, most 5.56 is actually going to penetrate *less* than handgun calibers in a typical drywall and stick build residential structure. 

 

 

My reason to use a PCC for home defense is that they're less loud than an AR-15, [note: can't get suppressors in my state] and they're more accurate (for me) compared to a production gun.

[Sarge]

7 hours ago, Ontos said:

 

Because that matters.... why, exactly?

Matters to me so that’s all that matters.

[IHAVEGAS]

On a serious note, a buddy who shoots PCC very well has been met with some apparently sincere negative comments by a couple r.o.'s . 

 

I figure that if you can't take a little kidding about a lot of things that is your problem (revolver guys often put up with Amish jokes & just roll with it, for example), but serious negative remarks are a shame.