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Thoughts on Unsportsmanlike DQ on a classifier

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1 hour ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

 

Never heard of anyone getting DQ'd for it...

 

You have now! I’m still digging on this and going further with it. I’ll inform everyone of the results. 

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Posted (edited)

For anyone interested, Troy McManus just got back to me. This was his response:

 

I can see several different scenarios here that could result in an unsportsmanlike conduct call, but just reading what you state, I would not make that call.  Logically, since the classifier would most likely not count for you, there is no reason to not shoot it in an unprescribed fashion, as long as you did it safely.  I've seen people mess up a classifier and then just do a mag dump into the targets.  As long as they didn't violate any safety rules, no harm, no foul.  
 
However, if there were any extenuating circumstances, such as loud profanity, throwing magazines, etc., associated with your actions, I could see a USC call.  Not saying there were, just saying.  Everyone has a threshold on things like that, so it's hard to predict.  I'd be interested in their reasoning behind making that call.

 

Edited by Rosswoodford

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2 hours ago, Rosswoodford said:

For anyone interested, Troy McManus just got back to me. This was his response:

 

I can see several different scenarios here that could result in an unsportsmanlike conduct call, but just reading what you state, I would not make that call.  Logically, since the classifier would most likely not count for you, there is no reason to not shoot it in an unprescribed fashion, as long as you did it safely.  I've seen people mess up a classifier and then just do a mag dump into the targets.  As long as they didn't violate any safety rules, no harm, no foul.  
 
However, if there were any extenuating circumstances, such as loud profanity, throwing magazines, etc., associated with your actions, I could see a USC call.  Not saying there were, just saying.  Everyone has a threshold on things like that, so it's hard to predict.  I'd be interested in their reasoning behind making that call.

 

 

Sadly, not a very definitive answer. IMO, should have been answered more definitively based on the facts that were shared by OP. Then he could've added other info. Most important detail being that the simple act of tanking a classifier(whether intentional or not) isn't a DQ-able offense.

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1 hour ago, wgj3 said:

 

Sadly, not a very definitive answer. IMO, should have been answered more definitively based on the facts that were shared by OP. Then he could've added other info. Most important detail being that the simple act of tanking a classifier(whether intentional or not) isn't a DQ-able offense.

Hey, at least he got an answer. He should go buy a lottery ticket. 

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1 hour ago, wgj3 said:

 

Sadly, not a very definitive answer.

I don’t know how much more could have been said. “As long as no safety rules were broken, no harm, no foul.”

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That was definitely wrong on the RO. That is not grounds for a DQ. I have seen some of the best shooters Ive met do that to control their classification. Is it "Gaming" yes, This is a Game. Some RO just like to "Flex". I would be more worried about what else the RO is DQing peoplefor and not what that shooter did. 

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10 hours ago, Rosswoodford said:

I don’t know how much more could have been said. “As long as no safety rules were broken, no harm, no foul.”

 

Right, but seems that it would've been a bit more succinct to say, "Gaming a classifier is NEVER grounds for DQ." 

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3 hours ago, wgj3 said:

 

Right, but seems that it would've been a bit more succinct to say, "Gaming a classifier is NEVER grounds for DQ." 

I think the reason he didn’t say that, is because of what he said after that in the response, regarding extenuating circumstances. But, who knows. I’ve been in contact with the RM who is “standing behind his RO”. I’m more concerned with the precedent that sets at that particular club. If you allow RO’s to make up the rules, where’s the integrity of your matches?

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I have never understood the MD/RM mindset of blindly "Standing behind RO calls". Ruling calls are either valid or they are not regardless of who made the call. If an RO/CRO makes the wrong call which is overturned by the RM, and the RO/CRO take offense to the reversal then they shouldn't be doing the job in the first place. Making the RO/CRO "Feel Good" about their call should have nothing to do with the RM making the correct call based on the rules. How is the RO/CRO supposed to learn from their mistakes if the RM isn't willing to set them straight and also set the proper officiating example?

 

Serving as an MD and RM myself, I have asked a few RO's who kept making the wrong call, or got butt hurt about their incorrect calls being reversed, to stop working and replaced them with better RO's mid match. This is never a fun situation to deal with, but it is required to set the proper expectation that poor officiating will not be tolerated. Either do the job competently or don't do the job. Its as simple as that.

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34 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

I have never understood the MD/RM mindset of blindly "Standing behind RO calls".

that is usually reserve for a judgement calls...the MD/RM appoints the RO to work a stage and he appoints them because he trust their judgement and experience to run a fair match.  They don't really do it "blindly", but if it comes down to word against word, then he has to believe the RO over the shooter...

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58 minutes ago, racerba said:

that is usually reserve for a judgement calls...the MD/RM appoints the RO to work a stage and he appoints them because he trust their judgement and experience to run a fair match.  They don't really do it "blindly", but if it comes down to word against word, then he has to believe the RO over the shooter...

 

I agree with relying on the RO's judgement call when it applies to directly observed events like 180 breaks, AD's and stuff like that. But an Unsportsmanlike Conduct DQ is not one of those situations. In that kind of situation the whole scenario should be defined by the RO and shooter so it can be assessed properly by the RM. 

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2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

I have never understood the MD/RM mindset of blindly "Standing behind RO calls". Ruling calls are either valid or they are not regardless of who made the call. If an RO/CRO makes the wrong call which is overturned by the RM, and the RO/CRO take offense to the reversal then they shouldn't be doing the job in the first place. Making the RO/CRO "Feel Good" about their call should have nothing to do with the RM making the correct call based on the rules. How is the RO/CRO supposed to learn from their mistakes if the RM isn't willing to set them straight and also set the proper officiating example?

 

Serving as an MD and RM myself, I have asked a few RO's who kept making the wrong call, or got butt hurt about their incorrect calls being reversed, to stop working and replaced them with better RO's mid match. This is never a fun situation to deal with, but it is required to set the proper expectation that poor officiating will not be tolerated. Either do the job competently or don't do the job. Its as simple as that.

 

Agree 100%

 

I expect the CRO on my stage and the RM to “stand behind me” as far as believing that I truly believe that I saw whatever I called, unless they saw something different or a vast majority of witnesses or other evidence contradicts me. 

 

I also expect them to correct and educate me if I make a wrong call.

 

I don’t get ROs who get upset when a competitor politely disagrees with their call on anything. I’m even ok with shooters who get a bit passionate about it, within reason - I get it, you’ve invested a good bit of time and money to come to the match, and you want to make sure that you are scored correctly. No problem, let’s talk to my CRO or then RM about it. If they overrule me, sorry for the way I initially called it and let’s move on.

 

I can honestly say that some of my favorite moments working matches so far were when someone questioned my call and I got to see and learn from how the RM interpreted the situation or scored the target.

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I have questions about arbitration. All I have shot is level one matches where we are lucky to have enough ro's for every squad. The md is also runniing a squad and shooting. If you want to arbitrate a call and if it happens to be on the md's squad, who do you arbitrate to/with?  Isn't that the fox guarding the henhouse?

 

And an earlier post said the fee is only as much as the entry fee. Is that correct? That's the first I'd heard that, but I've never studied those rules.

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1 minute ago, egd5 said:

I have questions about arbitration. All I have shot is level one matches where we are lucky to have enough ro's for every squad. The md is also runniing a squad and shooting. If you want to arbitrate a call and if it happens to be on the md's squad, who do you arbitrate to/with?  Isn't that the fox guarding the henhouse?

 

And an earlier post said the fee is only as much as the entry fee. Is that correct? That's the first I'd heard that, but I've never studied those rules.

 

Everything you need to know about arbitration is in Chapter 11, if you feel like looking through it yourself. 

 

11.2 describes who is on the committee, etc. At a level I or II match, the match director appoints a 3 person committee of “experienced competitors who are not party to the appeal and who do not have a direct conflict of interest in the outcome”. The 3 people “should be certified range officials, if possible” but it isn’t required.

 

Before things get to the point of arbitration, they go through the usual appeals process of RO -> CRO (does your local match designate one on each squad? They should in case of disputes.) -> RM (should ideally be a different person than the MD, especially if the MD is running a squad. At a small match this isn’t always feasible). 

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8 minutes ago, egd5 said:

I have questions about arbitration. All I have shot is level one matches where we are lucky to have enough ro's for every squad. The md is also runniing a squad and shooting. If you want to arbitrate a call and if it happens to be on the md's squad, who do you arbitrate to/with?  Isn't that the fox guarding the henhouse?

 

And an earlier post said the fee is only as much as the entry fee. Is that correct? That's the first I'd heard that, but I've never studied those rules.

 

You have an arb committee that reviews the arb, picked from other shooters, that is what keeps the RM honest, that is it in a nutshell 

 

And of course it is only the cost of the match up to a max of 100, I said it, so you know it is true.

 

One other thing, I recommend not arbing in a local, whoever gets picked for the arb committee will not love you anymore......

 

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OK, 3 person committee, that makes sense. I'll read more when I get more time. Thanks

 

Yeah, good point about locals. We all know each other pretty much.

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No DQ, unless of course the competitior was out of control in some way and was a danger.  Gaming a classifier isn't unsportsmanlike, not sure he was gaming anything either though?.  Heck from what you report it's not much different than the "hero or zero, burn it down" type who sprays wildly not hitting anything but no shoots.   But if he's screaming, shaking, frothing at the mouth with a wild eyed deranged look like he's looking for his next hit of meth, throwing stuff around and waving his gun past the 180, yea he's out of there.  

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1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

No DQ, unless of course the competitior was out of control in some way and was a danger.  Gaming a classifier isn't unsportsmanlike, not sure he was gaming anything either though?.  Heck from what you report it's not much different than the "hero or zero, burn it down" type who sprays wildly not hitting anything but no shoots.   But if he's screaming, shaking, frothing at the mouth with a wild eyed deranged look like he's looking for his next hit of meth, throwing stuff around and waving his gun past the 180, yea he's out of there.  

None of that was present. I had been a quality squad mate all day (and even after the DQ I took on the role of squad mom). It was absolutely a zero or hero run, I clipped the no shoot, so put 2 more in it and proceeded to not shoot the remainder of the stage Virginia count. (For good measure of course)

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When I read stuff like this it makes me grateful to shoot with the knowledgeable & ethical ROs & MDs in my area. This is just ignorant. 

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It would be interesting to point the RO and RM to this thread and get their take and how they came to the conclusion they did, cause i sure don't understand how they arrived at it

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Tell us where it was.

So I don't go there.

Absolutely not a dq!

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2 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Tell us where it was.

So I don't go there.

Absolutely not a dq!

Im honestly not interested in blowing them up, but it was a local club in Iowa. Not one I shoot at regularly. That was the one and only time I’ll ever shoot there, though! If you dig hard enough on practiscore I’m sure you can find it 🙃

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5 hours ago, RJH said:

It would be interesting to point the RO and RM to this thread and get their take and how they came to the conclusion they did, cause i sure don't understand how they arrived at it

By not knowing the rules themselves if I had to guess. Procedure wasn’t followed to begin with unfortunately. As much as all of this sucks, I did learn a ton and it’s been good from that standpoint. I had the opportunity to shoot a match and squad with Sherwyn Greenfield  (Director A3) this morning.Talked to him about it very briefly and he gave me the same answer as Troy. Little more definitive though. Either way, it’s done and over I guess!

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