Phoenix Trinity Honcho vs Limcat/Atlas open guns

[avastcosmicarena]

Has anyone here had the opportunity to try both a Honcho and a Limcat RazorCat or Atlas Chaos/Erebus?

Purely from a value-for-the-money perspective, the Honcho is pretty tempting, since it can run both major and minor 9mm, different calibers, etc.... You simply don't get this with the competitors.

There's also the fact that many other companies, including Atlas, use the Phoenix Trinity Evo grip.

However, does the Honcho actually shoot as flat? It seems like the versatility comes at the cost of some refinement/details... For example, Atlas cuts down the slide to 4.6" for faster cycling, and there are no barrel popple holes on the Honcho like there are on the RazorCat & Chaos, no fixed island comp on the minor 9mm version like on the Erebus (or Omni/DVC-P), etc.... but a side effect of this is you can actually run minor 9mm ammo in the open barrel w/ comp without problems (seen in a few youtube videos), which is cool if you want to use it for more than just open.

Other downsides to the Honcho: not much flexibility when it comes to optics. The mounts are only for Vortex optics, and they haven't said anything about offering alternative plates/mounts for other optics. Does anyone know whether or not the open major version's frame mount holes are the common pattern? Could you buy an Atlas mount for a Holoson 510C (or whatever) and use it on the Honcho?

Overall, I'm super interested in the Honcho because of its versatility, but there are trade-offs. Wondering if anyone has had a chance to actually compare how they shoot and has any thoughts about flatness/return to zero/etc. vs Limcat/Atlas guns.

Edited May 31, 2019 by avastcosmicarena

[Ssanders224]

7 hours ago, avastcosmicarena said:

Has anyone here had the opportunity to try both a Honcho and a Limcat RazorCat or Atlas Chaos/Erebus?

Purely from a value-for-the-money perspective, the Honcho is pretty tempting, since it can run both major and minor 9mm, different calibers, etc.... You simply don't get this with the competitors.

There's also the fact that many other companies, including Atlas, use the Phoenix Trinity Evo grip.

However, does the Honcho actually shoot as flat? It seems like the versatility comes at the cost of some refinement/details... For example, Atlas cuts down the slide to 4.6" for faster cycling, and there are no barrel popple holes on the Honcho like there are on the RazorCat & Chaos, no fixed island comp on the minor 9mm version like on the Erebus (or Omni/DVC-P), etc.... but a side effect of this is you can actually run minor 9mm ammo in the open barrel w/ comp without problems (seen in a few youtube videos), which is cool if you want to use it for more than just open.

Other downsides to the Honcho: not much flexibility when it comes to optics. The mounts are only for Vortex optics, and they haven't said anything about offering alternative plates/mounts for other optics. Does anyone know whether or not the open major version's frame mount holes are the common pattern? Could you buy an Atlas mount for a Holoson 510C (or whatever) and use it on the Honcho?

Overall, I'm super interested in the Honcho because of its versatility, but there are trade-offs. Wondering if anyone has had a chance to actually compare how they shoot and has any thoughts about flatness/return to zero/etc. vs Limcat/Atlas guns.

 

You shouldn't have any concerns of how the Honcho "feels" or shoots. It it one of the softest shooting, least violent Open guns I've ever shot. Ditto in Limited config. There was a TON of time and testing (from several shooters) put into making the Honcho shoot great. If it needed or would have benefited from some of the attributes you listed, they most likely would have been included. My wife has several Open guns, some with holes, some with hybrid barrels, etc, she much prefers the way her Honcho shoots. 

 

The current included optic mount will also allow you to use the Vortex, a Cmore RTS2, or a DPP. I use an RTS, my wife runs a DPP.   IF you wanted to change to a Holosun, you could swap the mount for any standard pattern optic mount. 

Bottom line is, you really aren't giving up ANYTHING with the Honcho, shoot-ability, function, options, or otherwise.... you are just gaining a ton of versatility and value. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Ssanders224

[avastcosmicarena]

 

Quote

If it needed or would have benefited from some of the attributes you listed, they most likely would have been included.

Hmm, I'm not sure that's necessarily true though. After all, they are somewhat limited by the design, right? Because you can swap barrels & calibers, that means all barrels must be the same length, etc.... In particular, I think what Atlas is doing with the slightly shorter 4.6" slides (with comp set further back) on 9mm guns does make a difference (reducing reciprocating mass, better timing/cycling).

And, of course, on the 9mm limited barrel, Phoenix Trinity made this probably specifically for Limited minor, which is why it has no comp.... but for 3 gun use, Atlas has options like the Erebus which have a fixed island comp, which I'm sure still has some advantage over no comp at all even with minor ammo (although it might not be a huge difference).
 

Quote

The current included optic mount will also allow you to use the Vortex, a Cmore RTS2, or a DPP. I use an RTS, my wife runs a DPP.   IF you wanted to change to a Holosun, you could swap the mount for any standard pattern optic mount. 

That's good to hear. IMO, the 510C is the best reflex optic on the market right now (crisp dot, largest window, green dot option). Atlas & Tevo both make mounts for it, & Cheely is working on one. I have 4 510Cs lol

It would be cool if they offered different mounting plates for the 3 gun slide ride version though. I think a lot of people would like to have the option of using a Trijicon RMR or the new SRO or the Holosun 507C (same footprint as the RMR/SRO).

I'm mostly just curious to see whether anyone has had the chance to compare to other high end 2011s, like Atlas & Limcat. The versatility of being able to switch barrels is super appealing, but $5000-$6000 is a lot of money. There is an argument to be had that the versatility might even be worth it if it's not quite as flat or doesn't return to zero as well, but if it IS just as flat, then that makes it more of a no brainer since you're getting more for your money.

[MVPFc]

3 minutes ago, avastcosmicarena said:

 

Hmm, I'm not sure that's necessarily true though. After all, they are somewhat limited by the design, right? Because you can swap barrels & calibers, that means all barrels must be the same length, etc.... In particular, I think what Atlas is doing with the slightly shorter 4.6" slides (with comp set further back) on 9mm guns does make a difference (reducing reciprocating mass, better timing/cycling).

And, of course, on the 9mm limited barrel, Phoenix Trinity made this probably specifically for Limited minor, which is why it has no comp.... but for 3 gun use, Atlas has options like the Erebus which have a fixed island comp, which I'm sure still has some advantage over no comp at all even with minor ammo (although it might not be a huge difference).
 

That's good to hear. IMO, the 510C is the best reflex optic on the market right now (crisp dot, largest window, green dot option). Atlas & Tevo both make mounts for it, & Cheely is working on one. I have 4 510Cs lol

It would be cool if they offered different mounting plates for the 3 gun slide ride version though. I think a lot of people would like to have the option of using a Trijicon RMR or the new SRO or the Holosun 507C (same footprint as the RMR/SRO).

I'm mostly just curious to see whether anyone has had the chance to compare to other high end 2011s, like Atlas & Limcat. The versatility of being able to switch barrels is super appealing, but $5000-$6000 is a lot of money. There is an argument to be had that the versatility might even be worth it if it's not quite as flat or doesn't return to zero as well, but if it IS just as flat, then that makes it more of a no brainer since you're getting more for your money.

You should give PT a call. We  can answer all of your questions and give you the best info. Like how both models come with two 9mm barrels. One with a comp for open and the other with a sight block for limited. Both will handle major ammo. We can also direct you to Honcho owners (besides our team shooters) who would be happy to share their thoughts and how the gun shoots. And if there are any in your area you can try out in person - Tiffany

[avastcosmicarena]

On 6/1/2019 at 8:32 AM, MVPFc said:

You should give PT a call. We  can answer all of your questions and give you the best info. Like how both models come with two 9mm barrels. One with a comp for open and the other with a sight block for limited. Both will handle major ammo. We can also direct you to Honcho owners (besides our team shooters) who would be happy to share their thoughts and how the gun shoots. And if there are any in your area you can try out in person - Tiffany

I've actually emailed before asking questions, and also asked questions on the instagram account, and never received a reply in either case.

I see that the 3 gun model doesn't list anything about a slide ride optic plate or optic on the site anymore. What happened there?

Would it be possible to get frame mount holes drilled in the 3 gun model? Or, alternatively, get the other model with a tac rail frame?

Edited June 5, 2019 by avastcosmicarena

[MVPFc]

I see an email from March 19th which I responded to on the 20th. I went ahead and forwarded it to you today just Incase you did not receive it. If you sent another email, I’m sorry, I didn’t receive it. I don’t show any IG messages on our PT page either. 

 

We are making some updates to the website. The 3Gun Model does come with an optic plate and optic. We are updating the Optic Plate to work with as many optics as possible.

 

We could potentially tap holes in the Tac Frame versus offering the Tac Frame on the Race Ready.

 

Feel free to give us a call or email if you have more questions.

 

Tiffany

[avastcosmicarena]

26 minutes ago, MVPFc said:

I see an email from March 19th which I responded to on the 20th. I went ahead and forwarded it to you today just Incase you did not receive it. If you sent another email, I’m sorry, I didn’t receive it. I don’t show any IG messages on our PT page either. 

 

We are making some updates to the website. The 3Gun Model does come with an optic plate and optic. We are updating the Optic Plate to work with as many optics as possible.

 

We could potentially tap holes in the Tac Frame versus offering the Tac Frame on the Race Ready.

 

Feel free to give us a call or email if you have more questions.

 

Tiffany

Cool, I never got it before for some reason. I'll check my email. Tapping holes in the tac frame version sounds interesting! Thanks.

[Ssanders224]

On 6/1/2019 at 7:21 AM, avastcosmicarena said:

 

Hmm, I'm not sure that's necessarily true though. After all, they are somewhat limited by the design, right? Because you can swap barrels & calibers, that means all barrels must be the same length, etc.... In particular, I think what Atlas is doing with the slightly shorter 4.6" slides (with comp set further back) on 9mm guns does make a difference (reducing reciprocating mass, better timing/cycling).
 

 

My comment was based on the fact that many experienced shooters gave input on how the Honcho felt/shot before the design was finalized.  Any consensus on how the pistol performed was addressed. If the attributes mentioned were felt to be necessary, they would have been addressed/added. 

 

The Honcho design was not limited by anything initially. It was a blank canvas. It was approached with the attitude of "this needs to be the best shooting competition platform available". 

The design also wasn't an overnight decision. A LOT of prototyping, testing, and evaluation went into the design. 

 

I've shot examples of all of the guns you asked about. I can honestly say that the Honcho shoots as well or better than any other Open or Limited gun I've had experience with. The design is not "limiting" to it's performance in any way.  I wouldn't shoot the Honcho in Limited if I thought there was a better option (I have other guns in the safe), and same goes for Open (I have other Open guns in the safe). And I don't say that lightly. Even Tiffany & Brian know I wouldn't shoot it unless I REALLY thought it was my best option, and I expressed plenty of concerns/changes throughout the process to make sure that it was. 

Edited June 4, 2019 by Ssanders224

[ilovevtac]

Does the Honcho have an option for a thumb rest? 

Thanks

[MVPFc]

1 hour ago, ilovevtac said:

Does the Honcho have an option for a thumb rest? 

Thanks

The tapped holes in the Race Ready utilize the Honcho tech in the female end. This allows a mount and thumb rest if desired (thumb rest not included with the gun) to be installed using normal screws of the appropriate size, without loctite or worry of them coming loose.

[Hiroshi]

Atlas Gunworks builds really awesome guns.

[2Alphamikenoshoot]

I just talked to my buddy about comparatively how is it? Now this is second hand so just take this as a caveat. But I was really really interested to know how it compared to the Atlas Chaos because thats all I've owned. Its my first open gun in 9major.  

 

Hes had an akai open gun, and currently owns an atlas chaos. Then bought the honcho.

Heres what he had to say.

"The atlas is a back up gun now if that says anything. The gun presents better, shoots flatter and the barrel lock-up is unique in a class of its own. It doesnt have poppel holes so its a little hotter but it likes 173-175 PF. And they prefer the MBX mags over the STI gen 2's." He also did mention something a little interesting. He said the presentation is a lot different on the honcho than the atlas and you cant go back and forth easily between them. 

 

 

 

Another buddy i talked to has shot the following:

infinity

akai

ck

atlas

sti dvc open

black dog custom

limcat

This is what he had to say

"I have probably shot others i just dont remember. I have done my fair share of testing guns though. The honcho trumps them all. It was such a major difference that i had to figure out exactly what it is. I think it has to do with some of the internals and the grip and angle...weight is a big part of it too. Weight distribution on the honcho is just about perfect."

 

Honestly once i sell some guns i got collecting dust I'm sending it and getting one. Ill shoot that and the atlas and see which one i like most. Which one i dont like as much will be a back up. 

[Fo0]

are the honcho barrels easier to fit and do they use a standard 1911 slide

[MVPFc]

4 hours ago, Fo0 said:

are the honcho barrels easier to fit and do they use a standard 1911 slide

Honcho barrels are made to fit and can be installed in about 5 minutes. Slides are different than traditional.

[Balakay]

15 hours ago, devilsdenguns said:

I just talked to my buddy...

I think it has to do with some of the internals and the grip and angle...

 

 

Not saying it’s not a great pistol but if it’s a PT EVO Grip and frame, how can the angles be any different than any other gun with a PT grip and frame

[kujo929]

Not saying it’s not a great pistol but if it’s a PT EVO Grip and frame, how can the angles be any different than any other gun with a PT grip and frame

I’ve never shot a honcho, just handled one next to my chaos in a safe area. Grip/frame felt same as my chaos with Pt EVO.

For what it’s worth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Balakay]

31 minutes ago, kujo929 said:

 

I’ve never shot a honcho, just handled one next to my chaos in a safe area. Grip/frame felt same as my chaos with Pt EVO.

For what it’s worth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thanks.  This confirms what I suspected

[2Alphamikenoshoot]

Not saying it’s not a great pistol but if it’s a PT EVO Grip and frame, how can the angles be any different than any other gun with a PT grip and frame

[emoji2369] I’m just relaying what they said. For me really it’s a no brainer. Shoot 9 or 38sc out of the same platform.
And I think when there are quite a few builders using their components it speaks volumes about the quality of their products. The evo is undoubtedly one of the best grips out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Balakay]

6 minutes ago, devilsdenguns said:

 

I’m just relaying what they said. For me really it’s a no brainer. Shoot 9 or 38sc out of the same platform.
And I think when there are quite a few builders using their components it speaks volumes about the quality of their products. The evo is undoubtedly one of the best grips out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Agreed, I have 2 guns with EVO grips

[2Alphamikenoshoot]

Agreed, I have 2 guns with EVO grips

So I had shot a few open guns. And then shot a honcho at the pro am in Atlanta last year. And I had never handled a pt evo grip until then. But the second I picked it up my decision was made. And that’s why I went with atlas. Shooting down in the south during the summer can be brutal. Other guns were just way too slick. Sliding around. But the evo just stays planted.


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[andrewquinniv]

I'm saving my pennies for a honcho, it seems like the best bang for your buck pistol wise.

[Furrly]

10 hours ago, andrewquinniv said:

I'm saving my pennies for a honcho, it seems like the best bang for your buck pistol wise.

 Without a doubt 

[Sdlrodeo]

I run an Atlas Titan. Boringly reliable. I shot a Honcho set up for Open. Felt really soft and easy to transition due to the same PT evo grip.

 

I’d like to shoot a honcho set up for LTD so I could compare apples to apples. 

 

Never shot a LimCat at all but I know several competitors that run them in both Open and LTD and I’ve never seen them have a problem.

 

In theory, it Seems like the Honcho would be an awesome “one and done” gun. 

 

However, I wonder how much “balance” is needed between barrels. In other words, how would it work If I shot 20K rounds in open 38SC configuration, then only 1K in LTD, then bounced back to Open 9Maj and fired a few K rounds. How does the metal mate/wear?

 

To me there is merit in having division specific guns and possibly backup guns in those specific divisions.

 

Interesting conversation none the less.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Sdlrodeo

[MVPFc]

1 hour ago, Sdlrodeo said:

However, I wonder how much “balance” is needed between barrels. In other words, how would it work If I shot 20K rounds in open 38SC configuration, then only 1K in LTD, then bounced back to Open 9Maj and fired a few K rounds. How does the metal mate/wear?

 

Which parts are you concerned about wear? The barrels themselves or the slide to frame? 

[Sdlrodeo]

Really any and all. I don’t think it would be noticeable for the most part. Just sort of curious about it. If one barrel/slide set up gets A LOT more use would it have an effect on the other components?