Gas petal in production

[Timido]

1 hour ago, MHicks said:

 

Oops fat fingered the quote button.   They should just allow magwells and call it limited 10.  

Edited June 7, 2019 by Timido
Oops

[davidb72]

I think it's silly, but no more silly than putting rifles in a pistol match.

 

[Smithcity]

12 minutes ago, davidb72 said:

I think it's silly, but no more silly than putting rifles in a pistol match.

 

Finally! Took longer than expected for that comment!

[B_RAD]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

they don't have thumbs, so guns don't win anything. Usually a dude wins nationals. The dude who has been winning lately chooses to shoot a different brand of race-only wonder-gun.

Have you ever shot a stock 2?  

 

You and I are just at totally opposite ends of this. Just can't wrap my head around a Tanfo or a CZ being a "race gun". To me, they're no better, no worse, than a Glock or a XD, etc.  

 

Anyways, not trying to start up another debate/argument but why again is the Tanfo or CZ a race gun? Seriously, I'm curious. 

 

I don't want to read thru this entire thread. 

 

 

To me, it's just heavier. Trigger is not terribly important to me so I don't think the CZ or Tanfo really has a better one. Or at least not that it matters. Magwell openings. No. Especially not on the Tanfo. Maybe the CZ/Tanfo are a tad more accurate. Maybe. 

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Anyways, not trying to start up another debate/argument but why again is the Tanfo or CZ a race gun? Seriously, I'm curious. 

 

 

they are not normal duty/carry guns. they cost alot more and are made special for racing. unlike the cheaper cz/tanfo models, or glock/xd/m&p, etc....

[MikeBurgess]

10 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Have you ever shot a stock 2?  

 

You and I are just at totally opposite ends of this. Just can't wrap my head around a Tanfo or a CZ being a "race gun". To me, they're no better, no worse, than a Glock or a XD, etc.  

 

Anyways, not trying to start up another debate/argument but why again is the Tanfo or CZ a race gun? Seriously, I'm curious. 

 

I don't want to read thru this entire thread. 

 

 

To me, it's just heavier. Trigger is not terribly important to me so I don't think the CZ or Tanfo really has a better one. Or at least not that it matters. Magwell openings. No. Especially not on the Tanfo. Maybe the CZ/Tanfo are a tad more accurate. Maybe. 

 

 

 

 

I think the point is the Stock 2 and 3,  Shadow/ Shadow 2, Walther's new steel frame ect. are specifically made to be heavy, this is not something that the rest of the gun buying world normally sees as a desirable feature on a duty size / caliber gun. look on the hip of your average LEO or under the vest of a CCW  and you are unlikely to find many full rail steel guns, the main market behind these guns in particular is competition shooters. 

[B_RAD]

Just now, motosapiens said:

 

they are not normal duty/carry guns. they cost alot more and are made special for racing. unlike the cheaper cz/tanfo models, or glock/xd/m&p, etc....

Ok.

 

I'll say one last thing though, some of these "competition ready" (my words) aren't really any better or even much different than the regular models. That's all I guess I was getting at. To me, it seems that most of times it's just a little paint and marketing. I'll give one example. The stock 2 vs the extreme version. A lot more money. Different color. "better" hammer, sear, springs and trigger. And yet absolutely not worth it IMO. What's better about that gun? Trigger is maybe smoother. Maybe a little more crisp?  Is that better? 

 

 I feel a spring change is all that's needed. Don't even need to change all that other stuff. Really don't even need to polish.  That's all you're getting when you buy one. Nobody is really going to do better with that one vs a normal one.  At least not in my mind. 

 

Of course nothing wrong if someone wants to buy one. Just saying. 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

I'll say one last thing though, some of these "competition ready" (my words) aren't really any better or even much different than the regular models.

 

that's a reasonable opinion. Nonetheless, they are made and marketed (and priced) for competition, with additional non-duty features such as extended magazine releases, and wider magazine openings.

 

There are police departments that carry the p01 or 75b. There are no police departments I know of that carry shadow 2's. Real 'production' guns cost $500-700 and are duty-issue for someone, somewhere. Race guns cost much more than that and are not issued by any police department that I'm aware of.

[B_RAD]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think the point is the Stock 2 and 3,  Shadow/ Shadow 2, Walther's new steel frame ect. are specifically made to be heavy, this is not something that the rest of the gun buying world normally sees as a desirable feature on a duty size / caliber gun. look on the hip of your average LEO or under the vest of a CCW  and you are unlikely to find many full rail steel guns, the main market behind these guns in particular is competition shooters. 

I can't argue that LEO and the SD community usually trends towards lighter guns.  In my mind that's because if weight savings for the 99.99999999999999% of the time that the gun is holstered. 

 

Do heavier guns really mean better when it comes to competition?  I'm not saying they don't  but not sure they do either. I will say that a heavier gun may mask the negative affects when someone doesn't grip as hard as they may need to. Meaning, a heavier gun should rise in recoil less than a lighter gun.  But most folks would agree if you grip hard enough, that issue is now irrelevant.  

 

So, I'd agree the gun companies have made heavier guns to suit the customer's desire for less "recoil" .  Kinda of a not really a solution to the real problem but oh well. 

 

 

[Patrick Scott]

1 minute ago, B_RAD said:

 

Do heavier guns really mean better when it comes to competition?  I'm not saying they don't  but not sure they do either. I will say that a heavier gun may mask the negative affects when someone doesn't grip as hard as they may need to. Meaning, a heavier gun should rise in recoil less than a lighter gun.  But most folks would agree if you grip hard enough, that issue is now irrelevant.  

 

I cant prove heavier is better either, but I did read that a big part of why sig now makes a p320 with tungsten powder mixed into the polymer was because Max M wanted the gun to be heavier. Im guessing that his grip is OK. 

[B_RAD]

12 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

I cant prove heavier is better either, but I did read that a big part of why sig now makes a p320 with tungsten powder mixed into the polymer was because Max M wanted the gun to be heavier. Im guessing that his grip is OK. 

Maybe he did. I mean he's not paying for it.  Maybe they say that so they can charge more $$$ for that option? 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by B_RAD

[MHicks]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

I know of zero good limited shooters who use thumbrests. I see lots of C and B shooters using them. Draw your own conclusions.

Thanks. I am going to try some limited just for a change of pace from SS unless I end up really enjoying it. Haven't really paid that much attention to limited before.   I had no idea as far as who uses thumbrests or doesn't.

[Patrick Scott]

Just now, B_RAD said:

Maybe he did. Maybe they say that so they can charge $400 more that option? 

A pretty reliable source said he was asking for the gun to be heavier, but you could be right.  I know he was also very interested in the aftermarket heavy grip setup thats been out for a while. 

[B_RAD]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

A pretty reliable source said he was asking for the gun to be heavier, but you could be right.  I know he was also very interested in the aftermarket heavy grip setup thats been out for a while. 

No. I'm not staying he didn't.  Probably did. But again, I'm just trying to.makenthe point that sometimes it's about money. Not about actually being better. Point in case everyone now has a match grade barrel. Unknowing shooters might actually think that means better. Does it?  Or could that be marketing? IDK?

[RJH]

This has morphed  into an interesting thread on race guns vs non race guns. I figured a lot of the "race gun" kind of thing would have let up when glocks went 1&3, or was it 1&2 at limited nats a couple of years ago, bit that has not happened. Now, i realize that they were heavily modded glocks, but they were still glocks, and they were used to beat heavily modded 2011s. So i do reckon a glock or other plastic gun compares favorably to the czs and tangs, especially in production with minor ammo, but they are not the hottness right now for sure

[MikeBurgess]

34 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

I can't argue that LEO and the SD community usually trends towards lighter guns.  In my mind that's because if weight savings for the 99.99999999999999% of the time that the gun is holstered. 

 

Do heavier guns really mean better when it comes to competition?  I'm not saying they don't  but not sure they do either. I will say that a heavier gun may mask the negative affects when someone doesn't grip as hard as they may need to. Meaning, a heavier gun should rise in recoil less than a lighter gun.  But most folks would agree if you grip hard enough, that issue is now irrelevant.  

 

So, I'd agree the gun companies have made heavier guns to suit the customer's desire for less "recoil" .  Kinda of a not really a solution to the real problem but oh well. 

 

 

100% agree heavy guns are not better by design you can be just as competitive with damn near any old gun that fits the division. it all shooter all the time in our sport. but the trend in the sport is to feel you "NEED" to have a heavy DA gun that is marketed for our game regardless fo the facts that it wont actually make a difference in your score.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

19 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

A pretty reliable source said he was asking for the gun to be heavier, but you could be right.  I know he was also very interested in the aftermarket heavy grip setup thats been out for a while. 

I know this will sound like heresy but even top competitors are victims of group think and are not above believing something will make them better without empirical evidence to back it up.

 

to make the gathering of empirical evidence even harder in this respect, believing something will make you better will likely have a positive affect just because you think it will

[Timido]

Now I'm putting a *thumb rest [generic]* on my PCC.  

[George16]

1 minute ago, Timido said:

Now I'm putting a *thumb rest [generic]* on my PCC.  

 

[d_striker]

23 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

just make a slide stop that is a combination thumb rest/ magwell 

 

genius!

[Intel6]

1 hour ago, Timido said:

Now I'm putting a *thumb rest [generic]* on my PCC.  

 

https://www.speedshooter.com/product_detail.cfm?id=GG-GPRS&gogun-ar-15-polymer-gas-pedal

 

I got a few of these one year at the Nationals.  Put one on my 1522 and it didn't work out well for me due to my large hands. 

[ringram]

On 6/6/2019 at 9:21 PM, Timido said:

The production rules specifically say this modification is illegal.  

 

Ok yeah, just saw 21.4 

 

So how did the retards get the rule to allow thumb rests though rule 22.2?

"Non-OFM grip modifications (addition or removal of material) that provide function, such as a beavertail or thumb rest are prohibited."

[Timido]

15 minutes ago, ringram said:

 

Ok yeah, just saw 21.4 

 

So how did the retards get the rule to allow thumb rests though rule 22.2?

"Non-OFM grip modifications (addition or removal of material) that provide function, such as a beavertail or thumb rest are prohibited."

I guess because it's technically a replacement part.   I don't think a *thumb rest [generic]* would make someone that much faster.  I have a 22/45 .22 that is basically an open gun but a .22 it has a *thumb rest [generic]* on it.  The advantage in that case is it allows me to index the gun alot better.   I thought about trying one on my CZ but with bladetech holster and my hanger that would be alot of changes for something that I don't really need

[regor]

On 6/8/2019 at 10:11 AM, ringram said:

 

Ok yeah, just saw 21.4 

 

So how did the retards get the rule to allow thumb rests though rule 22.2?

"Non-OFM grip modifications (addition or removal of material) that provide function, such as a beavertail or thumb rest are prohibited."

 

Because replacement take down levers are allowed (OEM or aftermarket) and the thumb rest in question is not the typical kind that bolts to the frame. It *is* a take down lever, but it has an integrated thumb rest, so it counts as an aftermarket take down lever. It’s a loophole, but one that Troy is happy to allow, and that I frankly doubt will get heavily utilized. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by regor

[wtturn]

 
Because replacement slide stops are allowed (OEM or aftermarket) and the thumb rest in question is not the typical kind that bolts to the frame. It *is* a slide stop, but it has an integrated thumb rest, so it counts as an aftermarket slide stop. It’s a loophole, but one that Troy is happy to allow, and that I frankly doubt will get heavily utilized. 

It's not a slide stop. It's a takedown lever.

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