Racinready300ex Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, B_RAD said: Who's currently building one of these race ready guns you speak of? Can't you spend like 2 grand on a tricked out S2 from CZ Custom, and by production rules it can weight like 52 ounces. That should be pretty much race ready production gun, that weights more than my limited gun and probably has a lighter trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, B_RAD said: I shoot a Glock 34 Good explanation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: Can't you spend like 2 grand on a tricked out S2 from CZ Custom, and by production rules it can weight like 52 ounces. That should be pretty much race ready production gun, that weights more than my limited gun and probably has a lighter trigger. 1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said: Good explanation First off, you asked thinking I must be shooting one of these 2k race ready guns. I was editing my comment when you Quoted me. Just saying, gun is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, B_RAD said: Who's currently building one of these race ready guns you speak of? walther, cz (or cz custom) maybe, tanfo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 1 minute ago, B_RAD said: First off, you asked thinking I must be shooting one of these 2k race ready guns. I was editing my comment when you Quoted me. Just saying, gun is irrelevant. I don't recall saying the gun is the key to success. And how well you do at your club matches shooting CO is fairly irreverent to my post too. While equipment isn't what makes the shooter keep in mind why IDPA exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) At one time the G34 was considered racy for a Prod gun.... 5" barrel, extended controls from factory, adj rear sight, cut in the slide, barely fit the box. That was some pretty forward thinking compared to other service pistols that might be used in Production back in 2010. I would consider the Shadow 2 a Prod race gun. It is built with and for one purpose in mind, competition. The weight, the barrel length, the sights, the mag release, the checkering, the frame. Next time you can, look at the width and angle of the corners on the rear sight at an ipsc target at different distances....It's not a coincidence how they match up. All of it. These guns are good to go with changing 2 springs and that's it. If that isn't race ready I don't know what is for a Prod gun... And now that Gutt and Eric G are shooting them it is only going to feel more-so like they are must have. Edited June 4, 2019 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, motosapiens said: walther, cz (or cz custom) maybe, tanfo. 8 minutes ago, motosapiens said: walther, cz (or cz custom) maybe, tanfo. Yet Stoeger kills everyone with a very plain stock 2! And would do just as well with a G34! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, motosapiens said: walther, cz (or cz custom) maybe, tanfo. 8 minutes ago, motosapiens said: walther, cz (or cz custom) maybe, tanfo. Yet Stoeger kills everyone with a very plain stock 2! And would do just as well with a G34! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, B_RAD said: Yet Stoeger kills everyone with a very plain stock 2! And would do just as well with a G34! you think his stock 2 is unmodified? Anyway a stock 2 is pretty much a race gun except for the stock trigger. Remember when ben first switched (because he thought it was a competitive advantage), and for a while they were unobtainium unicorn guns selling for a premium over msrp. Edited June 4, 2019 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: I don't recall saying the gun is the key to success. And how well you do at your club matches shooting CO is fairly irreverent to my post too. While equipment isn't what makes the shooter keep in mind why IDPA exists. When will I learn? Gun forum debates..... Pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, motosapiens said: you think his stock 2 is unmodified? Anyway a stock 2 is pretty much a race gun except for the stock trigger. I've shot them. You'd be surprised. Triggers are not what you'd consider slick! How's it a race gun? It has crap sights. Crap trigger. The magwell opening is horrible. It's over sprung. They vary greatly from gun to gun. It's heavy. That's your definition of a race gun. Edited June 4, 2019 by B_RAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 23 minutes ago, rowdyb said: At one time the G34 was considered racy for a Prod gun.... 5" barrel, extended controls from factory, adj rear sight, cut in the slide, barely fit the box. That was some pretty forward thinking compared to other service pistols that might be used in Production back in 2010. I would consider the Shadow 2 a Prod race gun. It is built with and for one purpose in mind, competition. The weight, the barrel length, the sights, the mag release, the checkering, the frame. Next time you can, look at the width and angle of the corners on the rear sight at an ipsc target at different distances....It's not a coincidence how they match up. All of it. These guns are good to go with changing 2 springs and that's it. If that isn't race ready I don't know what is for a Prod gun... And now that Gutt and Eric G are shooting them it is only going to feel more-so like they are must have. G34 was made in 1998 way before 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 So a nicer $200 trigger job and heavier gun equals a production race gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, B_RAD said: How's it a race gun? It has crap sights. Crap trigger. The magwell opening is horrible. It's over sprung. They vary greatly from gun to gun. the trigger can be fixed. what is wrong with the sights? They are pretty much what i shoot on my limited gun. What's wrong with the magwell opening? because it's a race gun, it actually is much more open and angled than a non-race gun like a cz75 or a glock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, B_RAD said: So a nicer $200 trigger job and heavier gun equals a production race gun. what makes a production race gun is one that is a special edition marketed only to competition shooters, and which is heavily modified from the versions that are sold to LE agencies, and more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, B_RAD said: So a nicer $200 trigger job and heavier gun equals a production race gun. Production is no longer based on service duty or your basic box stock pistols. It is now dominated by purpose built guns meant to push the rules to max weight limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, motosapiens said: the trigger can be fixed. what is wrong with the sights? They are pretty much what i shoot on my limited gun. What's wrong with the magwell opening? because it's a race gun, it actually is much more open and angled than a non-race gun like a cz75 or a glock. I guess it's all opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, HoMiE said: G34 was made in 1998 way before 2010 I can only quote back as far as my knowledge goes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, B_RAD said: I guess it's all opinion. sure it is. in my opinion, the majority of guns being shot in production are not actually duty/carry guns, but purpose-built competition guns. It is also my opinion that in such an environment, strictly limiting modifications just drives the price up of the purpose-built competition guns that come with the features people want. Whether or not those features are needed to do well is another topic altogether, but IIRC Ben wasn't sponsored by tanfoglio when he made the decision to switch to their guns. Perhaps he had some other reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, motosapiens said: the trigger can be fixed. what is wrong with the sights? They are pretty much what i shoot on my limited gun. What's wrong with the magwell opening? because it's a race gun, it actually is much more open and angled than a non-race gun like a cz75 or a glock. I guess it's all opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, HoMiE said: Production is no longer based on service duty or your basic box stock pistols. It is now dominated by purpose built guns meant to push the rules to max weight limit. 3 minutes ago, motosapiens said: sure it is. in my opinion, the majority of guns being shot in production are not actually duty/carry guns, but purpose-built competition guns. It is also my opinion that in such an environment, strictly limiting modifications just drives the price up of the purpose-built competition guns that come with the features people want. Whether or not those features are needed to do well is another topic altogether, but IIRC Ben wasn't sponsored by tanfoglio when he made the decision to switch to their guns. Perhaps he had some other reason. Two different people mentioning purpose built and duty/carry. To me, production means off the shelf striker or DA/SA.. Minor PF. Iron sights. I guess that'd typically be a duty/carry but not specifically. I usually cringe when I hear that because I.got started in the other sport and left it because I have no misconceptions of this being a sport. I guess.it boils down to everyone's take, idea of the sport being different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackCage Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 Here is the thing about Production being an "entry level" division in theory. Not many people have 5+ mags and pouches right off the bat. And you hear this advice all the time. "Load up your mags and shoot limited minor." Yea, because their basically stock gun will be competitive there? No chance, but a new guy isn't going to be competitive no matter what division he chooses. At least not for the majority of new shooters. So while I personally disagree with this new ruling to add gas pedals to Prod, I have no misconceptions about Production being "new shooter friendly" anymore than any other division. Hand a new competition shooter a slick limited or open gun and let them compete in Prod. They are still at the bottom of the results list for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, B_RAD said: Two different people mentioning purpose built and duty/carry. To me, production means off the shelf striker or DA/SA.. Minor PF. Iron sights. I guess that'd typically be a duty/carry but not specifically. I usually cringe when I hear that because I.got started in the other sport and left it because I have no misconceptions of this being a sport. I guess.it boils down to everyone's take, idea of the sport being different. When the G34 first came it, it was called Practical/Tactical and USPsA had a Practical Carry category which ultimately transformed into Production division. Going way back to 1998 BoD minutes... Practical Carry Category was developed by USPSA specifically to encourage new shooters who do not own competitive guns to compete in our sport. These new shooters should be competing against shooters of similar ability. Therefore, it is inappropriate for experienced USPSA members to compete in "Practical Carry". I didn’t start shooting until 2007 when I said hey, I have a Glock, that looks like fun. Yes we shoot competitively but it’s a big turn off to new shooters when they show up and see specialized gear and equipment and the perception is you need high dollar equipment. Production is no longer the low cost barrier to entry. It’s just the nature or sports as things progress. Go look at old nationals videos. They had stage scenarios, shooting standard stages, now everyone cries freestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, HoMiE said: When the G34 first came it, it was called Practical/Tactical and USPsA had a Practical Carry category which ultimately transformed into Production division. Going way back to 1998 BoD minutes... Practical Carry Category was developed by USPSA specifically to encourage new shooters who do not own competitive guns to compete in our sport. These new shooters should be competing against shooters of similar ability. Therefore, it is inappropriate for experienced USPSA members to compete in "Practical Carry". I didn’t start shooting until 2007 when I said hey, I have a Glock, that looks like fun. Yes we shoot competitively but it’s a big turn off to new shooters when they show up and see specialized gear and equipment and the perception is you need high dollar equipment. Production is no longer the low cost barrier to entry. It’s just the nature or sports as things progress. Go look at old nationals videos. They had stage scenarios, shooting standard stages, now everyone cries freestyle. Ha ha. Ain't that the truth! Where does it end though? I mean. Still can't have a magwell(for now). If someone made a version of one of these replaceable.back straps that had extra material on the bottom and that formed a magwell, would that be legal? Again not currently. Though, how is that any different than these new gas pedals? What about a barrel that had extra material on the end. Let's say about an inch long of metal. Maybe it has some baffles. That's not legal (currently) because the rules say a replacement barrel can't be .1" longer than the OEM barrel. Then why would it be ok to have extra on a slide stop? To my brain there's no consistency (of not enforcing the rules). If you're gonna allow stuff at least be consistent about it. So, where's the line? I'm seriously thinking production will eventually be something like Lim 10 9mm (no PF). I mean, why worry about striker fired and DA/SA if we're good with all this other stuff? Why should the type of action matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 2 hours ago, B_RAD said: Ha ha. Ain't that the truth! Where does it end though? I mean. Still can't have a magwell(for now). If someone made a version of one of these replaceable.back straps that had extra material on the bottom and that formed a magwell, would that be legal? Again not currently. Though, how is that any different than these new gas pedals? What about a barrel that had extra material on the end. Let's say about an inch long of metal. Maybe it has some baffles. That's not legal (currently) because the rules say a replacement barrel can't be .1" longer than the OEM barrel. Then why would it be ok to have extra on a slide stop? To my brain there's no consistency (of not enforcing the rules). If you're gonna allow stuff at least be consistent about it. So, where's the line? I'm seriously thinking production will eventually be something like Lim 10 9mm (no PF). I mean, why worry about striker fired and DA/SA if we're good with all this other stuff? Why should the type of action matter? Genie Left the bottle, cats out of the bag, production might as well be Lim10 minor for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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