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Gas petal in production


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21 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

if you made lim minor 10 rounds so 1911's could play, the idea wouldn't suck as much.

 

They could have 170s.  But the idea will suck cause splitting major and minor into their own divisions always sucks.  All divisions should be major and minor.  DVC, not DC.  DC is the mantra of IDPA, well, maybe just D for IDPA, and maybe not that haha 🙂 

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On 6/2/2019 at 9:29 AM, HCH said:

Since we’re completely off topic already, I’ll throw my sentiment in. 

 

I think we should combine L10, SS, and Production into one division. Rob the PF rules from SS, so it would be 8 rounds for Major and 10 for Minor. Keep the equipment rules from SS/production, so no race holsters and everything has to be behind the hip. Keep the box from Production. 


I think this is a neat idea.

Who knows. In 10 years we might be attending matches that are 80% Limited and Carry Optics and want a consolidated lo-cap division. I think SS struck good balance between major and minor wrt capacity limits.  @lstange has a nice data set showing maybe a 4-5% advantage to 8rd major over 10rd minor in the mid-pack, but that's within my daily variability anyways.

I started practical shooting with Rio Salado's Tuesday Night Steel and still see that as a fun and excellent introduction to the sport before the more nuanced rules of USPSA. If I were running my own unaffiliated match it'd be structured similarly with only three divisions: optical sights and 170mm mags, iron sights and 140mm mags, and a 8/10 round division with belt restrictions.


Back on topic,
As primarily a Production shooter, I'm not too concerned about the peDal. I think it will make little difference to someone's actual performance and I'm glad people can tinker with and tune their guns under a rule set that isn't too restrictive. I'm also glad Production is still only 10 rounds and would prefer it stay that way: the puzzle aspect of stage breakdown is rewarding and challenging. Clarity in the rules and consistency in how they are applied is ultimately more important to me than where the line is drawn.

Edited by belus
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8 hours ago, ringram said:

How long till clubs start shooting IPSC rules and bin the USPSA ones?

 

.. also the 15 vs 10 round discussion is pointless. Moving to 15 as per the rest of the world, yes all 100+ other countries shoot 15, would screw nobody!

 

Sure s#!t states like NY/CA etc will have to get a grip and deal with it exactly the same way Australia and Canada do now. Yes shoot 10 rounds at home and HORROR, shoot 15 at the rest of the matches. Nobody suddenly feints and actually the guys shooting 10 most of the time have an advantage as they have 33% more mag changes of practice over their sports career.

 

The argument of that being a problem is disingenuous. All classifiers are 10rd friendly so who cares!?

 

 

Never?  IPSC is just as messed up at USPSA, just in different ways.  

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It's always easier to "give" then "take" something away once the member base have it. 

That's why realistically going for 15 round is one way to make the legal "small parts" stink less. 

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What would you rather have if you were a Prod shooter for most of your matches?

Option A. More strict equipment rules, where only external change is sights bbuutt have 15 round capacity.

OR

Option B. Less restrictive equipment rules, but maxed out at 10 for magazine capacity?

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15 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

What would you rather have if you were a Prod shooter for most of your matches?

Option A. More strict equipment rules, where only external change is sights bbuutt have 15 round capacity.

OR

Option B. Less restrictive equipment rules, but maxed out at 10 for magazine capacity?

 

Option A, but would really prefer option C :

 

Strict rules but fill up factory mags, even better if major was allowed, even better if 45 was required for major.  (and I am a 40 guy, but if filling mags to capacity 45 major makes the capacity vs points decision really interesting)

Edited by RJH
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11 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

what is magical about 15 rounds?

parity with ipsc prod rules, nothing magic. just an arbitrary agreement with what someone else has already done.

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1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

What would you rather have if you were a Prod shooter for most of your matches?

Option A. More strict equipment rules, where only external change is sights bbuutt have 15 round capacity.

OR

Option B. Less restrictive equipment rules, but maxed out at 10 for magazine capacity?

Option B

I like the 10 round rule, low cap and minor makes it a different challenge and that's really what makes it different than limited, as much as everyone like to believe otherwise race holsters and SA triggers make very very little difference but 10 or more less rounds does and minor does.

 

I like the idea of more restrictive rules but with competitors always trying to push the envelope it makes actually fairly enforcing the rules very difficult. I alway say show me what exatily the legal hammers for a smith 59 look like? how about every factory hammer for a CZ75 from 75 till now? unless we start having professional gun inspectors at every major match somebody is going to be cheating (on purpose or not) so better to just make it so enforcement is easy and by that fair.

 

 

Oh and as to thumb rests on production guns, it makes it easier to see who you don't need to worry about, thumb rests are dumb in general and extra dumb in production. 

Edited by MikeBurgess
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I would prefer Production stay 10 round to stay friendly to competitors from other states or countries with mag limits. Minor modifications but no gas peDTal.  

Keep it at least semi-affordable to newcomers.  I know that looking at Open guns, I wouldn't even try to compete without some major equipment. I don't want newcomers to the sport to feel the same way about every category. I want someone to be able to come with a G17 or G34 and spend a few dollars on extra mags (or borrow some) and feel like they're really competing.  

 

I also think CO should go back to being mag limited to 10 rounds. Again to stay friendly to the newcomer and the people from states with limits.

 

But, as some were saying, it's hard to take categories away so what would that mean? A Carry Optics division by current rules and a Production Carry Optics for 10? Probably not. That horse has left the barn.

 

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11 minutes ago, lfine said:

I also think CO should go back to being mag limited to 10 rounds. Again to stay friendly to the newcomer and the people from states with limits.

 

They tried this and CO was going nowhere, then 140 mag rule came about and the division has really taken off

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1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

What would you rather have if you were a Prod shooter for most of your matches?

Option A. More strict equipment rules, where only external change is sights bbuutt have 15 round capacity.

OR

Option B. Less restrictive equipment rules, but maxed out at 10 for magazine capacity?

Easily B. Even though I don't put lots of effort into modifying my guns beyond good sights and trigger, I think it makes the division more accessible. I also want the plastic fantastic guns to be competitive and the 2019 rules go a long ways towards parity with the Tanfoglios/CZs.

 

1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

I've asked this before and never received an answer, what is magical about 15 rounds? 16 makes more sense to me, but I still like 10.

I like 10 too. It makes the game more strategic, IMHO.

 

10 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Oh and as to thumb rests on production guns, it makes it easier to see who you don't need to worry about, thumb rests are dumb in general and extra dumb in production. 

It's a new option so of course it must be a game-changing advantage  /s. I've known lots of limited guys to take their thumb rests off because the sights don't track straight. I think it'll be preference more than anything and my preference is the gun I'm already shooting.

 

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RJH, you're exactly right about CO taking off after lifting the 10 limit rule.  I just always thought of it as an offshoot of Production. It seems to be getting away from that.  

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Ifine, i think it started that way.  I think there was a 30 something oz weight limit and the 10 round rule.  I can't remember if they were both removed at the same time or if it was the weight limit and then the round count, but I think the division would have been pretty much doomed if they would not have made it a little more racy.  I mean, we are racing with guns, so a poor boy version of open really makes a lot of sense.   Many USPSA stages are already foot speed contest with a little shooting thrown in, i guess someone correctly figured out that the foot race and shooting was good enough, that a reloading contest wasn't really necessarry too, haha

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1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

Ask Pinto. 😉

 

 

They actually told us why. They wanted to reduce capacity to keep any particular gun from dominating the sport. I believe it was CZ that topped the capacity race by a few rounds. How they arrived at 15 I don't know, and honestly am not all that interested. That is why we march to the beat of a dofferent tune. I still have not seen any tidal wave of momentum for 15 rounds.

 

The division is whatever the BOD says it is, but that 15 number might be reconsidered for USPSA.

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I think the strict modification rules for prod are stupid, and I'm glad to see them getting chipped away at. All they do is encourage a few small companies to produce expensive race-only guns, and then everyone has to buy those to be competitive. Allowing modifications means people can spend a couple hundo or less fixing up most any duty/carry gun and not be at a drastic disadvantage.

 

The fundamental characteristics of production imho are:

a) based on duty/carry guns

b) minor scoring (requiring better accuracy)

c) limited round count.

 

Allowing more modifications doesn't really affect those fundamental characteristics.

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Since we've been throwing idea's out there. I have a crazy idea for a division. Give it a Capacity cap, we'll say 10 for now but what ever. Decide major or minor, we'll say minor for now. So similar to production. Then give it a price cap on the gun. Lets say $800 for this example in the gun. Boom and inexpensive entry level division that only costs $800 to shoot.

 

Now how do you police that you ask? Easy include what I'll call a buy out option. So any competitor at the match feels you've gone over the $800 limit and have a unfair advantage has the option to buy you out. After the match is over, you must sell them your gun for $800.  1911, Glock, Tanfo, Comp, Red dot. what ever you want just stay under the price cap. It could be a interesting division. Someone shows up with a $7k open gun and wins the match, good for them, until someone buys them out.

 

Obviously all laws would need to be followed based on where the match is held.

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3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Since we've been throwing idea's out there. I have a crazy idea for a division. Give it a Capacity cap, we'll say 10 for now but what ever. Decide major or minor, we'll say minor for now. So similar to production. Then give it a price cap on the gun. Lets say $800 for this example in the gun. Boom and inexpensive entry level division that only costs $800 to shoot.

 

Now how do you police that you ask? Easy include what I'll call a buy out option. So any competitor at the match feels you've gone over the $800 limit and have a unfair advantage has the option to buy you out. After the match is over, you must sell them your gun for $800.  1911, Glock, Tanfo, Comp, Red dot. what ever you want just stay under the price cap. It could be a interesting division. Someone shows up with a $7k open gun and wins the match, good for them, until someone buys them out.

 

Obviously all laws would need to be followed based on where the match is held.

No.

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17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I think the strict modification rules for prod are stupid, and I'm glad to see them getting chipped away at. All they do is encourage a few small companies to produce expensive race-only guns, and then everyone has to buy those to be competitive. Allowing modifications means people can spend a couple hundo or less fixing up most any duty/carry gun and not be at a drastic disadvantage.

 

The fundamental characteristics of production imho are:

a) based on duty/carry guns

b) minor scoring (requiring better accuracy)

c) limited round count.

 

Allowing more modifications doesn't really affect those fundamental characteristics.

Who's currently building one of these race ready guns you speak of?

 

Edited by B_RAD
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Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

Why? You prefer to run the really high end gear in production?

 

Not saying I really see this happening, just a neat idea IMO.

I shoot a Glock 34.

 

 

You know who beats me?

 

People that are better shooters.  I'm usually top 3 at a fairly large match. Usually only get beat by GM PCC shooters. If I'm on my game, I win HOA (shooting CO).  I'm an ok shooter.

 

 

It's not a matter if the rule changes change the standings, it's about the rules. At some point I'd think you gotta quit changing them. Some things, regardless if they'll help or hurt, just shouldn't be allowed. Just my opinion. 

Edited by B_RAD
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