Gas petal in production

[broadside72]

Will production become what SS is today in 10 years?  I personally think it's very likely.
"Production" in my opinion should be real production, e.g. pure OEM configs with OEM parts, OEM mags, etc.  Stop making it more and more like "limited minor" yet without the limited fun factor e.g. bigger mag capacity.  It will kill the division over time. 
 

Problem is you can't see the internal mods so keeping the division equitable would not be possible.

[HCH]

I’ll never understand the reasoning behind Limited Minor as a stand-alone division 

Edited June 2, 2019 by HCH

[MemphisMechanic]

15 minutes ago, HCH said:

I’ll never understand the reasoning behind Limited Minor as a stand-alone division 

 

Limited Minor is not and has not ever been it’s own division. Just like Open or SS, a competitor may choose to shoot major or minor power factor.

 

Are you saying that you’d like it to be, and don’t understand why it isn’t?

 

Perhaps because we already have one too many Limited divisions.   

[RJH]

32 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

Will production become what SS is today in 10 years?  I personally think it's very likely.

"Production" in my opinion should be real production, e.g. pure OEM configs with OEM parts, OEM mags, etc.  Stop making it more and more like "limited minor" yet without the limited fun factor e.g. bigger mag capacity.  It will kill the division over time. 

 

 

I would love this idea, if it was scored major/minor

[HCH]

6 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Limited Minor is not and has not ever been it’s own division. Just like Open or SS, a competitor may choose to shoot major or minor power factor.

 

Are you saying that you’d like it to be, and don’t understand why it isn’t?

 

Perhaps because we already have one too many Limited divisions.   

 

*never understand the wishes for Limited to be separated into Limited Major division and Limited Minor division*

 

is that a little easier to understand?

[lstange]

40 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

Any of the top 10 shooters at nationals, and especially the top 5, would have an equal chance at coming out HOA, regardless of the gun or PF (assuming we’re talking SS or Production). 

Highest minor Single Stack match percent at the Nationals

 

2018: 89%

2017: 89%

2016: 82%

 

 

That's a sizable gap, and I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

[HCH]

27 minutes ago, lstange said:

Highest minor Single Stack match percent at the Nationals

 

2018: 89%

2017: 89%

2016: 82%

 

 

That's a sizable gap, and I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

 

2018: Lo-cap nationals. The difference in the two divisions is negligible. 

 

My bad, “Factory Gun” Nationals. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by HCH

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, lstange said:

Highest minor Single Stack match percent at the Nationals

 

2018: 89%

2017: 89%

2016: 82%

 

 

That's a sizable gap, and I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

 

That's because prior to the last year (or two?) SS nationals was its own match, run by the SS Society in PASA park and was very, very 8 round major friendly. 

[rowdyb]

that screen shot of factory nats is disingenuous. 

 

There is a difference. Top 20 combined and only 6 in the top 20 were SS and they all shot major. Twice as many dudes shooting minor "production" guns in the top 20. 25th was Alan, shooting minor SS as U, but he is a Prod GM. So keep all those things in mind when you try to draw conclusions from nats data.

 

All this bolt on part stuff is dumb for in Prod.

[motosapiens]

22 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Since the max scoring targets per firing position is 8, I would say 8 tends to be pretty typical...

 

 

I would say it tends to be unusual at better matches to have more than handful of positions where 8 rounds must be engaged.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, lstange said:

Highest minor Single Stack match percent at the Nationals

 

2018: 89%

2017: 89%

2016: 82%

 

 

That's a sizable gap, and I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

it's not a coincidence, it's due to matches at PASA being specifically and consciously designed to favor major, and due to the large number of new classifiers (which negate the round count advantage of minor) in 2018. over the last several years, somewhere between 25 and 50% of area matches have been won by minor shooters, which shows if you don't actually plan to give major a significant advantage, it ends up pretty close and skill and execution matter more than pf.

[858]

B class is going to be out of control! 

[ringram]

How long till clubs start shooting IPSC rules and bin the USPSA ones?

 

.. also the 15 vs 10 round discussion is pointless. Moving to 15 as per the rest of the world, yes all 100+ other countries shoot 15, would screw nobody!

 

Sure s#!t states like NY/CA etc will have to get a grip and deal with it exactly the same way Australia and Canada do now. Yes shoot 10 rounds at home and HORROR, shoot 15 at the rest of the matches. Nobody suddenly feints and actually the guys shooting 10 most of the time have an advantage as they have 33% more mag changes of practice over their sports career.

 

The argument of that being a problem is disingenuous. All classifiers are 10rd friendly so who cares!?

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

11 hours ago, HCH said:

 

*never understand the wishes for Limited to be separated into Limited Major division and Limited Minor division*

 

is that a little easier to understand?

 

That’s what happens when guys want a new division because they have a gun they want to shoot competitively, not because there is an actual need for the new division.

 

Standalone Limited minor is as dumb as Production Major would be.

 

“Make 40 S&W M&P’s great again.”

[rowdyb]

Now I'm gonna go off topic..... hahahah. I wouldn't have a problem if the slate was wiped clean and we

-pcc only in multi gun matches or stand alone pcc matches.

- 4 division. A. Open major. B. Open minor/slide mounted optic/140 mag. C. Limited Major. D. Limited minor/behind hip bones placement/15 rounds.

[DKorn]

8 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Now I'm gonna go off topic..... hahahah. I wouldn't have a problem if the slate was wiped clean and we

-pcc only in multi gun matches or stand alone pcc matches.

- 4 division. A. Open major. B. Open minor/slide mounted optic/140 mag. C. Limited Major. D. Limited minor/behind hip bones placement/15 rounds.

 

So in other words:

 

Open

Carry Optics

Limited

Production 15

 

But without the current restrictions that CO and Production have to be DA/SA and on the list, and with most of the other modification restrictions removed?

 

I see nothing wrong here - maybe have a weight limit on the Production replacement division just to keep things reasonably balanced? Maybe set the weight limit so that 2011s with plastic grips barely fit but you have to be careful not to go over, kind of like Single Stack minor guns. I’d also still maybe keep the box for that division as well, just because. 

 

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

So in other words:

 

Open

Carry Optics

Limited

Production 15

 

But without the current restrictions that CO and Production have to be DA/SA and on the list, and with most of the other modification restrictions removed?

 

I see nothing wrong here - maybe have a weight limit on the Production replacement division just to keep things reasonably balanced? Maybe set the weight limit so that 2011s with plastic grips barely fit but you have to be careful not to go over, kind of like Single Stack minor guns. I’d also still maybe keep the box for that division as well, just because. 

 

 

Wouldn't that also ban some current production guns? A plastic grip 2011 with a aluminum magwell is like 6 ounces lighter than a Shadow 2.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Now I'm gonna go off topic..... hahahah. I wouldn't have a problem if the slate was wiped clean and we

-pcc only in multi gun matches or stand alone pcc matches.

- 4 division. A. Open major. B. Open minor/slide mounted optic/140 mag. C. Limited Major. D. Limited minor/behind hip bones placement/15 rounds.

I counter with open, limited,  truly stock , pcc,  and carry ops. And allow major/ minor in all divisions,  like it should be now, cause DVC

[lfine]

Reminds me how "stock" car racing used to mean "Stock", and today is quite different. From those are interested, you'll see some interesting parallels, down to the current day when now they're delineating the terms again. 

 

(From Wikipedia) -

 

When NASCAR was first formed by France in 1948 to regulate stock car racing in the U.S., there was a requirement that any car entered be made entirely of parts available to the general public through automobile dealers. Additionally, the cars had to be models that had sold more than 500 units to the public. This is referred to as "homologation". In NASCAR's early years, the cars were so "stock" that it was commonplace for the drivers to drive themselves to the competitions in the car that they were going to run in the race....

 

It can be said that 1993, with the addition of ground effect wrap-around type spoilers marked the beginning non-stock sheetmetal and from that point forward, stock cars were quickly allowed to differ greatly from anything available to the public. Modern racing "stock" cars are stock in name only, using a body template that is vaguely modeled after currently available automobiles....

 

A stock car, in the original sense of the term, is an automobile that has not been modified from its original factory configuration. Later the term stock car came to mean any production-based automobile used in racing. This term is used to differentiate such a car from a "race car", a special, custom-built car designed only for racing purposes....

 

"True" stock car racing, which consists of only street vehicles that can be bought by general public, is sometimes now called "street stock", "pure stock", "hobby stock", "showroom stock", or "U-car" racing.

 

 

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Wouldn't that also ban some current production guns? A plastic grip 2011 with a aluminum magwell is like 6 ounces lighter than a Shadow 2.

 

I’m not super familiar with how much 2011s actually weigh, but I would pick a weight limit such that current Production guns are OK (basically whatever the Shadow 2 weighs) but steel gripped 2011s won’t fit unless you do some serious work to lighten the gun up, or run like a 4” gun or something. 

[rowdyb]

petal, the part of a flower

 

pedal, a platform pushed for movement

 

gas petal is something stinky. a gas p edal is in your car or on the side of your now really weird Prod gun.

Edited June 3, 2019 by rowdyb

[858]

2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Now I'm gonna go off topic..... hahahah. I wouldn't have a problem if the slate was wiped clean and we

-pcc only in multi gun matches or stand alone pcc matches.

- 4 division. A. Open major. B. Open minor/slide mounted optic/140 mag. C. Limited Major. D. Limited minor/behind hip bones placement/15 rounds.

 

There would be a lot of support for that. There really only needs to be four divisions. The way it is now only may as well add black powder musket division to complete the ridiculous circle of inclusion. 

[motosapiens]

if you made lim minor 10 rounds so 1911's could play, the idea wouldn't suck as much.

[ChuckS]

34 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

petal, the part of a flower

 

pedal, a platform pushed for movement

 

gas petal is something stinky. a gas p edal is in your car or on the side of your now really weird Prod gun.

The spelling petal is a work around for what the forum software does to *thumb rest [generic]*...

[sb85]

Does the rule now make the Nitro Fin for the Tanfo/CZ legal now too?  It simply replaces the slide stop. 

 

https://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/Shooting-Sports-Innovations-Nitro-Fin-TanfoglioCZ-Slide-Lock-Thumb-Rest-P4515.aspx