Gas petal in production

[lstange]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

What is your chart based on?

It's based on a sample of recent matches, about half a year's worth. "From" is first match in sample, "To" is last match in sample for the same USPSA ID. Doesn't mean that people moved permanently, but still gives some indication.

 

I was also surprised to see that more people move to Limited than to CO, but in hindsight it makes sense, Limited is so large. Also many people stay in or migrate to Production, so it remains pretty healthy.

 

My vote is to not fix what's not broken and do nothing with Production. Move to 15 rounds will screw people in prohibition states (NY/NJ/HI/ME), since Production is the only remaining lo-cap division that is not on life support.

[Chuck Anderson]

2 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

What's your point?  

 

My comment was a direct response to Memphis's notion of shooters leaving Production due to a change to 15 rnd capacity. 

While I'm not necessarily in favor of that change, I don't think it would hurt the division participation at all.  We really only have one model to test that theory against (IPSC). 

 

Personally I would have been more attracted to Prod when I was new to the sport if it had been 15 rnds. That's not necessarily the case now, however. 

 

IPSC didn’t change from 10 to 15 rounds. They changed from factory capacity(ish) down to an arbitrary 15. Drawing a conclusion about increasing capacity doesn’t make a lot of sense. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

As stated above, getting a holster to fit will be difficult 

 

I don't know, Red Hill will make you a kydex holster for your limited gun with a nitro-fin. this should be easy for them.

[Ssanders224]

7 minutes ago, Chuck Anderson said:

 

IPSC didn’t change from 10 to 15 rounds. They changed from factory capacity(ish) down to an arbitrary 15. Drawing a conclusion about increasing capacity doesn’t make a lot of sense. 

 

No one ever said IPSC changed anything.  

The single point was that people will be interested in shooting 15 rnd Production, just like they are 10 rnd Production. Adding 5 rounds to the game doesn't make it some animal that no one would want to shoot. (As we see in IPSC) 

 

Again, do I think Production should move from 10 to 15 rnds? Nah, not really. 

I do think it would be a fairly insignificant change as far as affecting participation in the Division though. 

 

[Dazhi]

Don't mean to hijack this thread.  I was hardcore 10 rounder until I shoot CO. 

 

Try 15 round production and I think most prod shooters will like it better. 

 

I am not sure where the chart data comes from.  If I were to do this analysis, I will loop through all members classification data in the past year,  see how many have stopped shooting production and started CO by looking at their classification score timelines.  From anecdotes, at least 5 solid production guys at my club switched to CO in the past year.  That resulted in CO being 2nd biggest division (limited 1st) in all our club matches now.  Probably not everyone is going for bigger magazine capacity but it adds so much more exciting options when shooting stages. 

 

I for one will come back to production in a heartbeat if they make it 15 round. 

 

Since the rules are being "tweaked" frequently now, it won't hurt to try 15 round production for a while see if the membership likes it

[Jeff226]

With typical 8 round strings how is 15 rounds in production going to make production a big attraction?

[shred]

If your typical match has a bunch of 8 round strings, you need to get to some better matches.

 

[broadside72]

If production goes to 15, then why not change limited 10 and let single stack go to 10 for major and minor?

Or how she just leave production 10 rounds. If you want more go to CO or limited

[Jeff226]

2 hours ago, shred said:

If your typical match has a bunch of 8 round strings, you need to get to some better matches.

 

 

Since the max scoring targets per firing position is 8, I would say 8 tends to be pretty typical...but I didn't say every match I go to has only 8 round strings...can you quote where I said that?  

 

I don't think forcing extraneous round counting on the 10 and under crowd vs good stage setup makes for a better match.  Are you one of those Open/limited guys that hates getting beat by production shooters?

[shred]

Hah.   Last major I shot Open at, I believe I was right about even with Ben Stoeger who cleaned everyone's clock in PD.  No worries there

 

I've been shooting Single Stack Major and Minor mostly lately.   I can tell you that in major matches and better club matches, strings of 8-8-8 are in no way typical.  So yeah, if your locals are like that, go to some better matches.  That's all I said.

 

[Jeff226]

32 minutes ago, shred said:

Hah.   Last major I shot Open at, I believe I was right about even with Ben Stoeger who cleaned everyone's clock in PD.  No worries there

 

I've been shooting Single Stack Major and Minor mostly lately.   I can tell you that in major matches and better club matches, strings of 8-8-8 are in no way typical.  So yeah, if your locals are like that, go to some better matches.  That's all I said.

 

 

I never said matches were all 8-8-8...can you quote that?   Maybe even tell me what you think the work typical means as that could be where the disconnect is.  Typical <> "always"

 

So instead of continuously misreading what I write, how about telling me what is typical at these better matches that would make me all giddy about a 15 round production magazine? 

[lstange]

On 5/31/2019 at 8:16 PM, Dazhi said:

Try 15 round production and I think most prod shooters will like it better. 

Can't. It's illegal where I live.

[HCH]

Since we’re completely off topic already, I’ll throw my sentiment in. 

 

I think we should combine L10, SS, and Production into one division. Rob the PF rules from SS, so it would be 8 rounds for Major and 10 for Minor. Keep the equipment rules from SS/production, so no race holsters and everything has to be behind the hip. Keep the box from Production. 

[pete627]

On 5/30/2019 at 5:14 PM, StandardError said:

Someone euthanize me. Ugh

+1 

[lstange]

36 minutes ago, HCH said:

I think we should combine L10, SS, and Production into one division. Rob the PF rules from SS, so it would be 8 rounds for Major and 10 for Minor. Keep the equipment rules from SS/production, so no race holsters and everything has to be behind the hip. Keep the box from Production. 

In Single Stack it's generally accepted that shooting minor is a disadvantage, even after accounting for the two extra rounds. So all Production guys will need to dump their Shadow 2s and Stock 2s and buy something in .40. At which point we get something very similar to Limited 10 (Limited 8/10?) instead.

[HCH]

2 hours ago, lstange said:

In Single Stack it's generally accepted that shooting minor is a disadvantage, even after accounting for the two extra rounds. So all Production guys will need to dump their Shadow 2s and Stock 2s and buy something in .40. At which point we get something very similar to Limited 10 (Limited 8/10?) instead.

 

I’m  not so sure. 3 out of the top ten at Nationals shot Major. The other 7 shot production. That really makes me think there’s not too much difference. 

[lstange]

2 minutes ago, HCH said:

I’m  not so sure. 3 out of the top ten at Nationals shot Major. The other 7 shot production. That really makes me think there’s not too much difference. 

That's right, there is not much difference, but it exists: one, two.

[lacivilian]

Don’t get why people that are opposed to prod15 use restricted states as an example. At your local match no one will be shooting with 15 round mags so your points are irrelevant. Traveling out of state would then be the only time you could load to 15 in your magazine. Which affects a very small portion of your state’s population. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by lacivilian

[waktasz]

The 10 round limit is the main thing, along with minor scoring,that differentiates Production from Limited. I don't want all the divisions to be the same. 

[Joe4d]

no to 15 round,, yes to a mag length rule or a OEM capcity rule.
Wnt to see Production BOOM ? get rid of all the allowed mods, making it like limited.
, get rid of the capacity rules... come up with a mag length of OEM capacity rule

[waktasz]

No

[broadside72]

no to 15 round,, yes to a mag length rule or a OEM capcity rule.
Wnt to see Production BOOM ? get rid of all the allowed mods, making it like limited.
, get rid of the capacity rules... come up with a mag length of OEM capacity rule

Then just shoot limited?

[Dazhi]

Will production become what SS is today in 10 years?  I personally think it's very likely.

"Production" in my opinion should be real production, e.g. pure OEM configs with OEM parts, OEM mags, etc.  Stop making it more and more like "limited minor" yet without the limited fun factor e.g. bigger mag capacity.  It will kill the division over time. 

 

[Dazhi]

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

42 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

no to 15 round,, yes to a mag length rule or a OEM capcity rule.
Wnt to see Production BOOM ? get rid of all the allowed mods, making it like limited.
, get rid of the capacity rules... come up with a mag length of OEM capacity rule

Then just shoot limited?

 

If limited minor has its own division, I am sure it will be a very popular division. 

[HCH]

5 hours ago, lstange said:

That's right, there is not much difference, but it exists: one, two.

 

Any of the top 10 shooters at nationals, and especially the top 5, would have an equal chance at coming out HOA, regardless of the gun or PF (assuming we’re talking SS or Production).