shred Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 Everyone hates them, but an easy way to go a long way to levelling out the playing field and ignore all the custom part fracas is trigger pull limits. <cue whining about "but mah Investment!"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 1 hour ago, shred said: <cue whining about "but mah Investment!"> "Whining"- the other fellas money was wasted. "Righteous rebellion" - My money is being wasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belus Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/15/2019 at 2:13 PM, IHAVEGAS said: My theory is that it all started with participation trophies. Yeah, there was this whole generation pushing for participation trophies so their kids didn't feel left out, and now they have the audacity to turn around and collectively blame the now-grown kids for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 2 hours ago, belus said: Yeah, there was this whole generation I don't think it was ever close to a majority position, a large enough minority to create a lasting nuisance though. Could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) . Edited June 21, 2019 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrysan Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Hello everyone, I never thought I would bring this post back to life after almost 5 years. I have been an IPSC shooter for a year and have already taken part in several matches. Unfortunately, about 3 weeks ago in Germany there was a discussion at an IPSC Level 3 match as to whether the take down lever used on the P320 (*thumb rest [generic]*) could be used in the Production Optics Division. The shooter had to reset his X-Five Legion to standard take down lever. In all other previous matches it was never an issue. A range officer had read the following on the Internet at Sig Sauer in the item description of the P320 *thumb rest [generic]*... “Improve your recoil control with this *thumb rest [generic]*® CG. This replacement for the factory P320 takedown lever helps you counteract muzzle rise during recoil with your support thumb.” With this description, the Range Officer perceived it as a thumb rest that is not allowed to be used in the Production Division even though it is not screwed on. Two weeks ago I spontaneously wrote an email to those responsible at ipsc.org, asking for clarification. However, I received feedback via email yesterday that the P 320 take down lever (*thumb rest [generic]*) is not allowed to be shot in the Production Division. There are already other weapons such as the Ruger American Pistol Competition, H&K SFP9, Springfield Echolon, etc. that have a similar characteristic to the take down lever (*thumb rest [generic]*) of the Sig P320 and are still shot in the IPSC Production or Production Optics Division. Unfortunately, it is not clear in the IPSC regulations which internal and external parts can be exchanged. I only found this information in the USPSA Competition Rules (February 2024) Page 101 APPENDIX D4 at 21.5 and 21.6. The cover sheet says also USPSA/IPSC, to what extent do these rules also apply to IPSC shooting? I can't find a reference anywhere in the IPSC rulebook to the USPSA rulebook. Mr. Troy McManus confirmed in 2019 that the take down lever is one of the replaceable parts and therefore you can shoot the *thumb rest [generic]* of the P 320 in the Production Division. Has there been a change in the regulations in the USA in recent years or how is it currently handled in the USA when shooters want to compete in a match with the P320 *thumb rest [generic]*? It would be helpful to get more support from you or to find out more so that we can clarify the issue here. Thank you for your support and opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 40 minutes ago, Larrysan said: Hello everyone, I never thought I would bring this post back to life after almost 5 years. I have been an IPSC shooter for a year and have already taken part in several matches. Unfortunately, about 3 weeks ago in Germany there was a discussion at an IPSC Level 3 match as to whether the take down lever used on the P320 (*thumb rest [generic]*) could be used in the Production Optics Division. The shooter had to reset his X-Five Legion to standard take down lever. In all other previous matches it was never an issue. A range officer had read the following on the Internet at Sig Sauer in the item description of the P320 *thumb rest [generic]*... “Improve your recoil control with this *thumb rest [generic]*® CG. This replacement for the factory P320 takedown lever helps you counteract muzzle rise during recoil with your support thumb.” With this description, the Range Officer perceived it as a thumb rest that is not allowed to be used in the Production Division even though it is not screwed on. Two weeks ago I spontaneously wrote an email to those responsible at ipsc.org, asking for clarification. However, I received feedback via email yesterday that the P 320 take down lever (*thumb rest [generic]*) is not allowed to be shot in the Production Division. There are already other weapons such as the Ruger American Pistol Competition, H&K SFP9, Springfield Echolon, etc. that have a similar characteristic to the take down lever (*thumb rest [generic]*) of the Sig P320 and are still shot in the IPSC Production or Production Optics Division. Unfortunately, it is not clear in the IPSC regulations which internal and external parts can be exchanged. I only found this information in the USPSA Competition Rules (February 2024) Page 101 APPENDIX D4 at 21.5 and 21.6. The cover sheet says also USPSA/IPSC, to what extent do these rules also apply to IPSC shooting? I can't find a reference anywhere in the IPSC rulebook to the USPSA rulebook. Mr. Troy McManus confirmed in 2019 that the take down lever is one of the replaceable parts and therefore you can shoot the *thumb rest [generic]* of the P 320 in the Production Division. Has there been a change in the regulations in the USA in recent years or how is it currently handled in the USA when shooters want to compete in a match with the P320 *thumb rest [generic]*? It would be helpful to get more support from you or to find out more so that we can clarify the issue here. Thank you for your support and opinions IPSC and USPSA rules are independent of each other. If it is allowed in USPSA, it is not necessarily allowed in IPSC. In USPSA, you can have a thumbrest in a production or CO gun if it is "built in" to another existing part, such as the slide stop. In IPSC Production, the default position is that you can only use parts that are available from the original manufacturer. The rules then state the aftermarket parts that are allowed (such as sights, magazines, triggers, springs). It gets a bit complicated because a gun manufacturer could indeed manufacture a part that incorporates a thumbrest. And there is nothing in the Production rules that explicitly forbid a thumbrest. But it seems that, based on the response you got from IPSC, that thumbrests will not be accepted in Production, even if they are offered as a part by the original manufacturer of a gun that is on the Production list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Quote 18. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following: 18.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing (the removal of burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required in order to fit replacement OFM parts or components), are prohibited. Other prohibited modifications include those which facilitate faster reloading (e.g. racking or cocking handles, flared, enlarged and/or add-on magwells, etc.), and/or adding stippling. Changing the original color and/or finish of a handgun, and/or adding stripes or other embellishments is permitted. It might be referring to the stippling on the pedal surface: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Link to the current IPSC Handgun Rulebook : https://www.ipsc.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/IPSC-Handgun-Competition-Rules-Jan-2024-Edition-Final-27-Dec-2023.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Do not confuse USPSA rules with IPSC rules. Though in MANY respects they are the same, there can be (as in Production) substantial differences. Neither set of rules has authority over the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 That thumbrest is not an OEM part, yes it is sold via the Sig store but its made by *thumb rest [generic]* and is not offered by Sig as OEM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrysan Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 On 4/3/2024 at 4:18 AM, Schutzenmeister said: Do not confuse USPSA rules with IPSC rules. Though in MANY respects they are the same, there can be (as in Production) substantial differences. Neither set of rules has authority over the other. As i wrote above, the front page of the USPSA Rule book stated on the bottom "USPSA/IPSC", so that seems to be confusing to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrysan Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 28 minutes ago, terrydoc said: That thumbrest is not an OEM part, yes it is sold via the Sig store but its made by *thumb rest [generic]* and is not offered by Sig as OEM However, you can order a weapon from Sig Sauer with only this special take down lever and then you won't have anything else. Then in this case it is an OEM part or not? I guess it would be different, if Sig wouldn't offer the take down lever on their webpage and i just could buy it as a aftermarket item at the original supplier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 4 hours ago, Larrysan said: As i wrote above, the front page of the USPSA Rule book stated on the bottom "USPSA/IPSC", so that seems to be confusing to me USPSA is a member region of IPSC and in our legal filings for our corporate name we have ALWAYS been listed as USPSA/IPSC. We formally went our own way with an independent set of rules (albiet rooted in and based on IPSC rules) in 2008. Again ... Confuse and conflate the two sets of rules at your own risk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 I thought It was 1998, USPSA did not adopt the new IPSC rulebook that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 4 hours ago, BritinUSA said: I thought It was 1998, USPSA did not adopt the new IPSC rulebook that year. 2001 USPSA rulebook I have on my desk for some reason is IPSC rules with USPSA exceptions sprinkled in. Pretty sure that carried on several more years, likely until 2008 as @Schutzenmeister says, since he's an RM and knows this sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Actually, check the thread posted by @ChuckS and pinned to the rules discussions ... He's documented it quite well. 2008 was our first independent rule set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 On 4/4/2024 at 7:21 PM, Larrysan said: However, you can order a weapon from Sig Sauer with only this special take down lever and then you won't have anything else. Then in this case it is an OEM part or not? I guess it would be different, if Sig wouldn't offer the take down lever on their webpage and i just could buy it as a aftermarket item at the original supplier. No its not OEM its aftermarket, as I said earlier, the other guns with an enlarged slide stop would have originally been approved with that slide stop. The Sig 320 { any model} was not. Good luck getting a reply from IPSC/IROA, we've been chasing answers from them for years with very little to no response and that's from our National IRO/NROI rep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrydoc Posted April 7 Share Posted April 7 Try asking on the IPSC RULES ANSWERS facebook page, Doubt you'll get a reply and if you do it doesn't hold any value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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