MikeBurgess Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 If you want simple rules just make it DA or Striker fired first shot fits box no comp or ports no optical sights 10 rounds minor scoring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: If you want simple rules just make it DA or Striker fired first shot fits box no comp or ports no optical sights 10 rounds minor scoring I don't hate this either, but 8 major 10 minor sounds better. And fill em up major/minor sounds even better. Could even make 45 required for major, to make it real interesting ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 This thread jumped the shark several pages ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 38 minutes ago, RJH said: That is part i think makes it the most interesting, and it harkens back to some early uspsa principals, but I also understand why people wouldn't like it. Actually my whole rule set is based off of the early principles of uspsa. Basically, here are some loose guidelines, you figure out what works the best. Freestyle baby, haha well, we have a buncha divisions that encourage custom race stuff already. maybe I have the wrong idea, but production has always seemed like it was based on duty/carry guns of the sort used by military and police and citizens for self-defense. I think whatever rules we have should keep that in mind and make sure that glocks, m&p's, beretta 92's, cz75b's, sig 226's, and other commonly used duty guns can be used competitively, without having to buy a high-dollar semi-custom race-only gun because you're not allowed to modify some trivial part. Having said that, I think the rules right now are pretty darned good, and allowing a little more flexibility in mods for production is another step in the right direction. GM's are still winning matches with lightly modified glocks, and allowing some b/c noobs to put a thumbresty thing on their gun certainly won't change that. It just allows a little more freedom of personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 I like the production rules right now. As an RO it's too hard to tell if its actually stock so internal mods and such should be allowed because that makes it fair for those that don't want to cheat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 I think the “problem” with Production (I don’t actually see it as a problem) is that no matter what you do, you pretty much end up with some people trying to gain equipment advantages and create a sort of “arms race”. If you don’t allow much in the way of mods (old Production rules or old IPSC rules), then you create an arms race in the “race” models of guns like the Shadow 2, etc. If you do allow mods, then you create a parts arms race where people push the rules as far as possible to gain any perceived advantage. At the end of the day, the best shooters will still win no matter what you choose. Personally, I’m generally in favor of allowing more mods because it lets people customize their gun to their preferences, and also allows people with already modified guns to participate in the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Since we are tossing out dumb ideas for production division..... How about a true production division. USPSA HQ can buy like 400 Glocks and ship them to matches. You pay a extra entry fee to shoot production that includes the rental of a completely stock G17 to shoot the match with. This would require a small investment of $$ and probably isn't legal in but what the hell. Or we work with GSSF and have a glock armorer at equipment check. He pulls your gun apart and replaces anything not factory and gives it back to you returned to stock. That'll keep people from modding s#!t. Bam, we have a true production division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denato1 Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 3 hours ago, motosapiens said: so you want people to be able to buy high-priced semi-custom race-only wonder guns for production, but not be able to inexpensively modify an affordable *actual production* gun to do the same things? That keeps production 'pure'? If you say it out loud, perhaps you will see how ridiculous that sounds. I also shoot a Walther PPQ, Stock no modification. And tend to shoot it just as well. I like the CZ more so that is what i shoot more. I dont think there is such thing as WONDER GUNS for a division. Plastic guns can and do win the division regularly with no mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcfoto Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 34 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: Since we are tossing out dumb ideas for production division..... How about a true production division. USPSA HQ can buy like 400 Glocks and ship them to matches. You pay a extra entry fee to shoot production that includes the rental of a completely stock G17 to shoot the match with. This would require a small investment of $$ and probably isn't legal in but what the hell. Or we work with GSSF and have a glock armorer at equipment check. He pulls your gun apart and replaces anything not factory and gives it back to you returned to stock. That'll keep people from modding s#!t. Bam, we have a true production division. I’m thinking of this as a self-assignment: buy a g17, leave it bone stock and shoot Production. But I also shoot revolver with a stock main spring. I prefer to think of myself as a purist but I’m sure others see me as a masochist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 52 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: Since we are tossing out dumb ideas for production division..... How about a true production division. USPSA HQ can buy like 400 Glocks and ship them to matches. You pay a extra entry fee to shoot production that includes the rental of a completely stock G17 to shoot the match with. This would require a small investment of $$ and probably isn't legal in but what the hell. IROC division, it may be dumb, but it does sound interesting...... F**k it, hold my beer and sign me up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 3 hours ago, RJH said: Ultimate production rule set: list guns (basically da/sa, striker), box, weight limit, oem mags filled, major/ minor, no comps, no dots, equipment placement who cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLDave Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 2 hours ago, DKorn said: I think the “problem” with Production (I don’t actually see it as a problem) is that no matter what you do, you pretty much end up with some people trying to gain equipment advantages and create a sort of “arms race”. If you don’t allow much in the way of mods (old Production rules or old IPSC rules), then you create an arms race in the “race” models of guns like the Shadow 2, etc. If you do allow mods, then you create a parts arms race where people push the rules as far as possible to gain any perceived advantage. At the end of the day, the best shooters will still win no matter what you choose. I think this is an astute observation. And it also illustrates why stability of rules is more important than getting any particular "right" ones when it comes to equipment. There's no deeper "true production" rule set waiting to be discovered. There need to be very compelling reasons to change equipment rules. Mere preference of a minority of shooters to have it different is not a compelling reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Southpaw said: So you will consider it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 17 minutes ago, ATLDave said: There need to be very compelling reasons to change equipment rules. Mere preference of a minority of shooters to have it different is not a compelling reason. This sounds entirely reasonable and correct, therefore we should immediately discard it. Hey, i got some ideas to fix production........:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Denato1 said: I also shoot a Walther PPQ, Stock no modification. And tend to shoot it just as well. I like the CZ more so that is what i shoot more. I dont think there is such thing as WONDER GUNS for a division. Plastic guns can and do win the division regularly with no mods. if that is true, then there is no valid reason to restrict modifications, is there..... Why not let other people make mod to their guns so they will like them more, since we agree that it won't affect the results? Edited June 14, 2019 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: Since we are tossing out dumb ideas for production division..... How about a true production division. USPSA HQ can buy like 400 Glocks and ship them to matches. You pay a extra entry fee to shoot production that includes the rental of a completely stock G17 to shoot the match with. This would require a small investment of $$ and probably isn't legal in but what the hell. Or we work with GSSF and have a glock armorer at equipment check. He pulls your gun apart and replaces anything not factory and gives it back to you returned to stock. That'll keep people from modding s#!t. Bam, we have a true production division. I totally agree, that is a really dumb idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timido Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 On 6/12/2019 at 9:13 PM, Robertwil18 said: Production should be just that......production. If it wasnt built that way from the factory, minus the sights, its a no. Keeps the playing field level. LOL,,, that made me laugh,, NO CHANGES !,, well other than the change I agree with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Long ago we had "OEM" mag cap rules in place. Manufacturers responded with a capacity-race of more and more ridiculous extended mags and basepads with each new version. That's where the SPO1 factory-extended mags came from, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bimmer1980 Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 I hope IPSC Production doesn´t go that nuts too. It´s stupid already. There are Guns (Tanfo xtreme, Shadow2 orange, PPQ match SF, new 320 xfive legion) that are not only build for competiton but also highly tuned. With Gas Pedals etc. it goes even more nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 We need to get rid of the term divisions and start calling them similars. Because that's what we keep making them. 15 round production? Why do we have to keep making everything easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, cas said: 15 round production? Why do we have to keep making everything easier? Well then let's make it 5........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 1 hour ago, cas said: 15 round production? Why do we have to keep making everything easier? My theory is that it all started with participation trophies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmmoHouse Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 On 6/13/2019 at 7:24 PM, elguapo said: The difference is that is an OEM part. The stupid part in question is not. And regardless of Troy McManus' opinion, appendix D4 doesn't allow non-OEM replacement takedown levers. This is exactly what I got out of that also. So you put on a *thumb rest [generic]*, arrive at an Area match and show them the screenshot...let us know how that goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 On 6/14/2019 at 9:25 AM, MikeBurgess said: If you want simple rules just make it DA or Striker fired first shot fits box no comp or ports no optical sights 10 rounds minor scoring that would be very easy to enforce. and isn't that supposedly where this all originates? the lack of ability to enforce the rules by match staff? (or at least that's how it seems reading BOD and NROI stuff) But it definitely shouldn't be called Production if it was that wide open.... Modified? oh wait....... hahahah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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