Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Gas petal in production


Kraj

Recommended Posts

57 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

correct, except (imho) for the first sentence.  The whole idea of running factory guns without mods is pretty dumb. OTOH, running guns that are based on actual duty/carry guns (with reasonable and appropriate competition mods) makes hella sense to me. ..... But not enough sense for me to actually do it anymore, lol. 

Running duty/carry guns is really dumb!

 

"Duty" guns means what?  Glocks? M&P's? Sigs? 

 

Nobody in the US uses CZ's or Tanfos for any type of offio duty use. 

 

1911's are irrelevant form this conversation since those fall under SS. 

 

The "duty" or LEO world is usually 20 yrs behind the competition world. So, to me, duty is dumb. 

 

Carry means what? Glocks 19's or equivalent? Maybe even smaller like the 26?  

 

People can go shoot IDPA or lobby for a new division if that's what they want. 

 

Making Prod =  to Lim 10 minor is dumb.

 

Allowing for mods via slide stop replacement but not allowing it via grip pannel replacement or grip modification is dumb!

 

To me that's the issue. Not that the CZ race gun gives a competitive advantage over a Glock. (which seems to be what some are hung up on)

Edited by B_RAD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 304
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

21 hours ago, elguapo said:

 

 

What it might do is open up a little creativity in stage design.  It also gives a little more leeway (not much) for makeups.

 

The rules on stage design are not tied to production capacity limits.  They're not facially tied to any division limits, but they do appear to perhaps reflect the 8-round capacity of the SS 1911 major guns.  Production capacity, on the other hand, has nothing to do with what MD's are allowed to do.  Not one thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, elguapo said:

Or is my math mistaken?

 

Yes.  Not because you are doing the arithmetic long, but because you seem to think the number of magazine changes = number of stage rounds/number of shots in magazine.  

 

That's not even close to correct.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

maybe at clubs where you shoot every stage is 8-8-8-8.  That's not how good stage designers do stuff.

 

Even at that there would still be stages where 8-16-8 (or something similar) was the fastest way to run it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, elguapo said:

 

Make up a stage and show it both ways.  I'd love to see the result.

 

 

6 targets, 3 visible from the left side of a barricade, 3 from the right, best 2 per target.  Quite a different stage for a 10 versus 15 round magazine.  Now imagine that's one part of a larger stage... this kind of thing might come up multiple times in one stage!  

 

Are you shooting someplace where the MD makes everything 8-round arrays?  If so, there's the appropriate focus of your desires for change.  

Edited by ATLDave
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

 

Nobody in the US uses CZ's or Tanfos for any type of offio duty use. 

 

 

38 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Making Prod =  to Lim 10 minor is dumb.

 

cz's at least are fairly popular military/police guns in europe, and they are not uncommon carry guns here. Maybe I'm biased because my carry gun is a cz. so i think the cz75 or p01 or their newer polymer guns fall squarely into the duty/carry category, just like glocks, m&p, xd, sig 226/229 (what my agency uses), etc....  

 

Take a duty/carry gun, limit mag capacity because otherwise many popular duty/carry guns will be instantly non-competitive, and allow reasonable tinkering modifications for competition. easy peasy.

 

I don't think anyone is talking about making prod into Lim10 minor. Lim10 has no box, allows single action guns,  frame mounted thumbrests, race-holsters, totally custom guns, etc.... The rules as interpreted currently by dnroi will have absolutely no effect on who wins in production, or what equipment the top guys use. It may allow some tinkerers to tinker a little more. Big deal....

Edited by motosapiens
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Even at that there would still be stages where 8-16-8 (or something similar) was the fastest way to run it. 

maybe, maybe not.  Usually there are a variety of plausible reload points for limited, based on your stage plan and preferences. Usually there are NOT a variety of plausible reload points for production. Most stages tend to see most prod (and ss minor) shooters reloading in the same place.

Edited by motosapiens
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

maybe, maybe not.  Usually there are a variety of plausible reload points for limited, based on your stage plan and preferences. Usually there are NOT a variety of plausible reload points for production. Most stages tend to see most prod (and ss minor) shooters reloading in the same place.

 

Yeah, but I have also seen/heard a lot of interesting conversations between production shooters about the stages that don't.  Where to skip a target because they want all 10 rounds for other things and then engage from a second place where it's available, whether to reload on a single sideways step or delay it one target and deal with a reload while moving uprange, etc.  I think those discussions are fascinating.  

 

Good stage design creates lots of that.  Heck, more than once I've shot a stage in Limited where I've made 2 reloads even with 20 round magazines.  One was a stage with 6 shots from along the left side of the stage, then 18 shots through a series of closely spaced ports in the middle, and then 6 more shots 5-6 steps away on the far right side.  I didn't want to juggle a reload in a 1-2 step move between any of the ports, so I shot 6, ditched 14 (really 15 since it was a loaded start), shot 18, ditched 3, and shot 6.  Two easy reloads in the middle of longer moves, or one heavily pressured reloads while trying to move between spots where visibility of the targets depended on being in just the right area.

 

Clever stage design can force a lot more reloading than just number of shots/number of rounds per mag... and, equally, allow less than the number of positions for even the capacity constrained divisions.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, rowdyb said:

It would be nice if there were NO changes to the rule book or classifiers or anything but once every 5 years. let things settle and just "be" for a consistent, lengthy period of time.

HAHAHAHAHA.

 

I let my RO cert expire, so going through the rule book changes.. Jeez!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, elguapo said:

The amount of butthurt that a change to become like the rest of the world's production division creates is fascinating.

 

Personally I do not know of anyone who is butthurt or anyone who cares what other people want to shoot. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, so to add to this.

 

Unfortunately we live in a coutnry where about 1/3 of the population lives under tyranny of 10 round mag limits.  Production gives shooters a place to shoot without feeling too many pressures of having to spend $1,500 on a gun just to shoot.  

 

Also, before the rule changes, there were plenty of people who would not follow local mag laws for Open and Limited.... and of course, that leaves that issue.

 

So changing Production to 15 will now leave 1/3 of the country and likely 1/2 of the gun owners playing gun games at a disadvantage and with moral dilemma of breaking laws in order to stay competitive.

 

Leave it at 10... perhaps making "production" more "production"... or make a "Limited Minor" division for those who really want it.

 

And making production be production gun limits? lol.  That will just make everyone shoot the same guns... 19 round CZs and XDms... until someone starts producing guns with "factory" extended base plates? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, elguapo said:

The amount of butthurt that a change to become like the rest of the world's production division creates is fascinating.

So you'd also be for measuring the pull weight on production guns?  No more 3.5 connector Glocks?  

 

Also, disagreeing with an idea/proposal for rational reasons is not "butthurt."  I don't even shoot production, I just know a silly idea when I hear it.

Edited by ATLDave
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, elguapo said:

The amount of butthurt that a change to become like the rest of the world's production division creates is fascinating.

 

3 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

So you'd also be for measuring the pull weight on production guns?  No more 3.5 connector Glocks?  

 

Also, disagreeing with an idea/proposal for rational reasons is not "butthurt."  I don't even shoot production, I just know a silly idea when I hear it.

 

not to mention, barrel length. IPSC limit is 5". That would make a lot of G34 and XDm Competition owners cross.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

So you'd also be for measuring the pull weight on production guns?  No more 1.59 Kg connector Glocks?  

 

2 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 

 

not to mention, barrel length. IPSC limit is 12.7 cm. That would make a lot of G34 and XDm Competition owners cross.

 

FIFY. 

 

Reminds me, when did they first start saying that we had to convert to the metric system? Late 60's? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 

FIFY. 

 

Reminds me, when did they first start saying that we had to convert to the metric system? Late 60's? 

 

Ha! Don't want to date myself but I remember my Science teacher in Jr. High circa 1973 telling us we'd better learn metric, because!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 

Ha! Don't want to date myself but I remember my Science teacher in Jr. High circa 1973 telling us we'd better learn metric, because!

 

I was told the same thing in the early sixties!  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Stony Lane said:

I noticed the coming Beretta 92X has what they call an extended takedown lever.

 

The difference is that is an OEM part.  The stupid part in question is not.  And regardless of Troy McManus' opinion, appendix D4 doesn't allow non-OEM replacement takedown levers.

Edited by elguapo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the trigger pull thing for Prod in ipsc has changed. you can now have a striker trigger that can be as low as 3.0lbs per pull. and aftermarket triggers assemblies are now allowed in ipsc production. external changes are still limited to sights, grips/grip tape and finish. no non factory, non prod gun sourced hammers, safeties, mag releases, barrels and so on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As someone from a limited Cap state, having Production be 10 rounds definately makes it much more popular. That said we have pleanty of people shooting limited10, pcc, open, Carry optics, all with 10 round mags. Does it suck to shoot them and hope to be nationally competitive? maybe. Are they fun to shoot Yes.

 

I dislike the current ruling for production, I feel that it does go against the feel of production. That being said, I shoot a Shadow 2 with a reduced reach trigger in it because I am allowed to and it makes it so i can comfortablely reach the Double Action on it. I have very short fingers for my big palms and it would not be feasible without it.

 

I feel that they need to try and keep Production as Pure as possible while making it so people can shoot it and get into the sport. I will leave off with I do not think that the part will truely give someone an advantage and make them shoot that much better. Skills are Needed in the Sport to do well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Denato1 said:

 

I dislike the current ruling for production, I feel that it does go against the feel of production. That being said, I shoot a Shadow 2 with a reduced reach trigger in it because I am allowed to and it makes it so i can comfortablely reach the Double Action on it. I have very short fingers for my big palms and it would not be feasible without it.

 

 

so you want people to be able to buy high-priced semi-custom race-only wonder guns for production, but not be able to inexpensively modify an affordable *actual production*  gun to do the same things? That keeps production 'pure'?

 

If you say it out loud, perhaps you will see how ridiculous that sounds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ultimate production rule set: list guns (basically da/sa, striker),  box, weight limit,  oem mags filled, major/ minor, no comps,  no dots,  equipment placement who cares.

 

 

Since we are all throwing out rule brand new production rules sets......

 

Or just find the division currently available that you like the most, shoot it, don't whine, and have fun. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, RJH said:

Ultimate production rule set: list guns (basically da/sa, striker),  box, weight limit,  oem mags filled, major/ minor, no comps,  no dots,  equipment placement who cares.

 

 

the bolded part is not a good idea imho, and would create an arms race, and have everyone shooting the same gun almost immediately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

the bolded part is not a good idea imho, and would create an arms race, and have everyone shooting the same gun almost immediately.

 

That is part i think makes it the most interesting, and it harkens back to some early uspsa principals,  but I also understand why people wouldn't like  it. 

 Actually my whole rule set is based off of the early principles of uspsa. Basically, here are some loose guidelines,  you figure out what works the best. Freestyle baby, haha 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...