Gas petal in production

[elguapo]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

I think the reason not to fool with the Production mag limit is because some people like having to do lots of mag changes and have devoted a bunch of time to that skill and have bought gear around that division's current requirements. 

 

Matching IPSC's production mag capacity will not result in any fewer mag changes per stage unless it's a pretty short stage with less than 7 targets.

 

Or is my math mistaken?

 

What it might do is open up a little creativity in stage design.  It also gives a little more leeway (not much) for makeups.

Edited June 12, 2019 by elguapo

[RJH]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

I think the reason not to fool with the Production mag limit is because some people like having to do lots of mag changes and have devoted a bunch of time to that skill and have bought gear around that division's current requirements.  Production is popular.  It got popular while it had a billion reloads per stage as part of its character.  Those are reasons enough.   The people who currently shoot it obviously like shooting it as-is.

 

I am not one of those people, so I stay the f*** out of that division.  I don't ask for that division and its rules to come to me... I go to the division(s) that offer the kind of game I want to play.  

 

But i want to shoot minor in limited and have it counted as major, and i want to do all the upgrades i want on a production gun and shoot 15 round mags, and i want to get to use comps in SS, think of all the old race guns we could get shooting again, and.......

 

But, seriously i agree %100, there are already 8 divisions, if one of them ain't close enough for you to be happy, you're too damn picky

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

Matching IPSC's production mag capacity will not result in any fewer mag changes per stage unless it's a pretty short stage with less than 7 targets.

 

Or is my math mistaken?

 

What it might do is open up a little creativity in stage design.  It also gives a little more leeway (not much) for makeups.

 

If only there were like maybe 4 divisions that allow higher capacity guns for people who want to load more ammo.........

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

It would be nice if there were NO changes to the rule book or classifiers or anything but once every 5 years. let things settle and just "be" for a consistent, lengthy period of time.

 

 

Yes, it would

[elguapo]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

If only there were like maybe 4 divisions that allow higher capacity guns for people who want to load more ammo.........

 

Do you have a rational answer or rebuttal to my question or only sarcasm?

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, elguapo said:

Matching IPSC's production mag capacity will not result in any fewer mag changes per stage unless it's a pretty short stage with less than 7 targets.

 

Or is my math mistaken?

 

Yes it is mistaken. With 10, or 10 +1 if you haven't lost Barney, you are usually dropping a mag after 8, sometimes after 4 or 6, and on occasion after just two if there is a single target and then a move that will get you to 5 more targets. 

I was shooting SS major before production, the difference between 8 and 10 is a big deal in how you run many stages and 8 really is like shooting every stage Virginia count. It feels like in USPSA math 10 = 2 * 8 . Also going from 6 major only to the choice of 6 major vs 8 minor in revolver totally wiped out 6 shot revolver.  

 

As far as stage design goes, creativity is already 100% welcome and hitting reloads on the move is a fun part of the overall challenge. 

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, ATLDave said:

Yep.  All that sounds very un-fun and horrible to me.  So I shoot Open and Limited!  

 

Raw fish sounds horrible to me.  Do I go to a sushi restaurant and demand they bring me a fried seafood platter?  No.  I just go to a different joint.  I don't like sushi, but it is OK with me that others do, and I don't want to ruin their fun.  

 

I don't understand why so many people - particularly people who are relatively new - are so selfishly insistent that all those who are already eating sushi need to be served fried catfish just because they like fried catfish.  And they can't be bothered to go a few blocks to the place with all the fried catfish they can eat. 

 

Wonder how much of that fried fish down the road was left over sushi from the other place?

 

Agree with you about gun stuff. 

 

[elguapo]

16 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Yes it is mistaken. With 10, or 10 +1 if you haven't lost Barney, you are usually dropping a mag after 8, sometimes after 4 or 6, and on occasion after just two if there is a single target and then a move that will get you to 5 more targets.

 

Do the same math with 15 in the magazine.  Maybe, MAYBE, you might save one reload in a big field stage.  Once in a while.

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

Do the same math with 15 in the magazine.  Maybe, MAYBE, you might save one reload in a big field stage.  Once in a while.

 

You can not just count rounds, that is why you do not understand I think, you have to plan reloads to avoid standing reloads and keep an acceptable risk for misses on steel. The lower the mag limit the more rounds that are dropped still in the mags. 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by IHAVEGAS

[elguapo]

5 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

You can not just count rounds, that is why you do not understand I think, you have to plan reloads to avoid standing reloads and keep an acceptable risk for misses on steel. The lower the mag limit the more rounds that are dropped still in the mags. 

 

 

 

I understand quite well.  Production is all I shoot.  I have a pretty strong grasp of how it works.

 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

Just now, elguapo said:

 

I understand quite well.  Production is all I shoot.  I have a pretty strong grasp of how it works.

 

 

 

If you have never shot any division with different mag capacity limits, or paid attention to why the 8 shot shooters are often running stages differently than you are, that could explain why you think that increasing mag capacity by 50% is not a big deal. 

[RJH]

55 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

Do you have a rational answer or rebuttal to my question or only sarcasm?

 

 

What was you question?  If it was does changing to 15 rounds make any difference, then yes 15 makes a huge difference. So in that case your math would be wrong, if you think it wouldn't allow 1/2 production shooters to load 15 at a match and the other half to load 10. 15 will give many more options and everyone would want to be in that 15 round half.

 

I deal in sarcasm, but i also deal in the truth.  Allowing 15 rounds in production would have 0 to do with stage design, but it would change freedom in stage breakdown for the shooter.  Luckily if you as a shooter want that freedom there are 4 divisions currently in the rule book that allow it.  Let production be what it is and if it don't fit you, try a different division

[Robertwil18]

Production should be just that......production.  If it wasnt built that way from the factory, minus the sights, its a no.  Keeps the playing field level. 

 

[elguapo]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Allowing 15 rounds in production would have 0 to do with stage design, but it would change freedom in stage breakdown for the shooter.

 

Make up a stage and show it both ways.  I'd love to see the result.

[Dazhi]

I personally think 15 rounds help production attract more shooters, mitigating some of the cannibalization done by CO.   Now appears to be the right time to bring this up because of these "small parts" rulings that don't really help attract shooters but push production more towards limited.

 

Check "Match Breakdowns" of this year's area matches on Practiscore.  CO has reached or surpassed production in popularity in a quite a few of them.  This was not the case when CO allowed only 10 rounds.  Bigger mag capacity does seem to draw more shooters, all else being equal.   I cannot count how many hard-core production shooters just wanted to "try" once or a bit of CO but then never come back.  Maybe 15-round is not the answer.  Maybe going all the way back to "factory" is, but even then, most full-size factory guns have 15 or 17 round mags.  I'd love to see true "factory gun" division instead of some half-blood.

[elguapo]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you have never shot any division with different mag capacity limits, or paid attention to why the 8 shot shooters are often running stages differently than you are, that could explain why you think that increasing mag capacity by 50% is not a big deal. 

 

Let's forget single stack for a minute.

 

Just make up a stage or pick one out of the many WSB/stage diagrams on the net.  Show me how you would run it with 10 and then 15 rounds in the gun.

[RJH]

57 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

Make up a stage and show it both ways.  I'd love to see the result.

 

 

  You make a stage and run it both ways.  If you honestly can't figure out the difference in 16 vs 11, and come up with a stage plan that allows you to be considerably more efficient with 16 over 11, you won't believe anyone else  anyway.  

 

But a quick example, any stage from 12-16 rounds, 22-30  rounds, any stage that has 4 targets followed by a quick 2-4 target array.  Now, would you always be able to take advantage of those extra rounds, no,of course not.  But to think they are only good for an occasional make up shot is naive  

Edited June 13, 2019 by RJH

[ima45dv8]

5 hours ago, elguapo said:

Matching IPSC's production mag capacity will not result in any fewer mag changes per stage unless it's a pretty short stage with less than 7 targets.

 

Or is my math mistaken?

There's nothing wrong with your math. Spot on.

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

There's nothing wrong with your math. Spot on.

 

Umm, what about a 22-30 round stage?   Seems like fuzzy math to me,  but the real advantage is the increased freedom in stage breakdown.  What about a stage with  a 3 target array, followed by a 3 target array, followed but an 8 target array, followed by an 8 target array.  You just went from 3 reloads to 1

 

PS, i am in the leave production alone group, cause i don't shoot it enough to care, so don't change it on my account haha

Edited June 13, 2019 by RJH

[IHAVEGAS]

8 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

There's nothing wrong with your math. Spot on.

 

32 Round stage - 2 targets available at start position - next 4 on the move - next 2 through a port - next 4 around a wall to the left -  next come 8 mini poppers at 15 yards 

 

10 round mag - shoot 4 rounds , reload (drop 6) - shoot 8 rounds, reload (drop 2) - shoot 4 rounds, reload (drop 6) - shoot 8 rounds, reload (drop 2) - 4 Reloads 11 rounds available to shoot the last 8 targets

 

15 round mag - shoot 12, reload (drop 3) - shoot 12 reload (drop 3) - 2 reloads 16 rounds available to shoot the last 8 targets

 

That is how things work out, although it would as often be plus 1 as plus 2. Attempting to use simple math often leads to bad conclusions, you have got to use an equation that includes all variables. Other thing, a lot of stages tend to work out well if some portion is shot in 10's (anybody shoot the SNS 400 last weekend?) - one gun at 10 creates the challenge of almost 0 make up shots available & the other (although you would not plan the stages the same way) lets you get sloppy. 

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by IHAVEGAS

[regor]

15 hours ago, Robertwil18 said:

Production should be just that......production.  If it wasnt built that way from the factory, minus the sights, its a no.  Keeps the playing field level. 

 

 

This is the spirit of Production but isn't feasibly without putting a MSRP cap on Production legal guns like PRS does with their Production division. Without that it's ludicrous to tell someone you can't spend $500 on a CZ SP-01 and put in $50 in CZC/CGW parts to lighten the trigger but you can pay $1200 and buy the Shadow 2 with similar parts already in it. That does not "[keep] the playing field level", it makes it even more skewed. 

[motosapiens]

19 hours ago, elguapo said:

 

Matching IPSC's production mag capacity will not result in any fewer mag changes per stage unless it's a pretty short stage with less than 7 targets.

 

Or is my math mistaken?

maybe at clubs where you shoot every stage is 8-8-8-8.  That's not how good stage designers do stuff. I'm more likely to do 4-7-2-14-5 (with a variety of other possible options.) Even with 10 rounds you can often do 1 reload fewer than folks shooting ss major.

 

I shoot limited, and I would estimate that on more than 50% of stages I shoot fewer than 15 rounds at least once. for instance, 14-18 on a 32 round stage. I would almost certainly do the same thing with 15 rounds, cutting out 1 reload.

Edited June 13, 2019 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, elguapo said:

 

Let's forget single stack for a minute.

 

Just make up a stage or pick one out of the many WSB/stage diagrams on the net.  Show me how you would run it with 10 and then 15 rounds in the gun.

 

I'm building one this weekend where the best approach for the non-elderly or disabled will probably be to shoot the final 14 rounds from a prone position. I think it'll still be best to do that in prod or SS, but it will mean a prone reload. Alternately, folks will be able to break it up into 2 different leaning positions of anywhere from 1-13 rounds each (totaling 14).

 

(note that I am  not advocating for increasing the mag capacity in production, just pointing out that either your math is faulty, or the clubs local to you do boring and unimaginative stages).

Edited June 13, 2019 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

48 minutes ago, regor said:

 

This is the spirit of Production but isn't feasibly without putting a MSRP cap on Production legal guns like PRS does with their Production division. Without that it's ludicrous to tell someone you can't spend $500 on a CZ SP-01 and put in $50 in CZC/CGW parts to lighten the trigger but you can pay $1200 and buy the Shadow 2 with similar parts already in it. That does not "[keep] the playing field level", it makes it even more skewed. 

 

correct, except (imho) for the first sentence.  The whole idea of running factory guns without mods is pretty dumb. OTOH, running guns that are based on actual duty/carry guns (with reasonable and appropriate competition mods) makes hella sense to me. ..... But not enough sense for me to actually do it anymore, lol. 

[B_RAD]

1 hour ago, regor said:

 

This is the spirit of Production but isn't feasibly without putting a MSRP cap on Production legal guns like PRS does with their Production division. Without that it's ludicrous to tell someone you can't spend $500 on a CZ SP-01 and put in $50 in CZC/CGW parts to lighten the trigger but you can pay $1200 and buy the Shadow 2 with similar parts already in it. That does not "[keep] the playing field level", it makes it even more skewed. 

It's legal to spend $50 to make the trigger better. 

CZC/CGW parts are legal.